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At the same time though, limited tools can lead to creativity. I know we're in the company of coders with complex workflows, but using and understanding a limit

At the same time though, limited tools can lead to creativity. I know we're in the company of coders with complex workflows, but using and understanding a limited tool well to the point where you can max it out can be better than living with a "long tail" of untapped power and productivity. Strange though, how the iPad is ostensibly a much better device given the touchscreen and keyboard (and now pencil) and yet remains somehow less useful than a MacBook. Might also be an issue of perception that the iPad can't do certain things well, when it almost can. From a user standpoint, having a device that really is like an appliance that never blinks or goes wrong is pretty brilliant. Windows has let me down on that front too many times for too many years, and now the only time I use it I live in a web browser 99.9% of the time (in a university library)...

zakki 3y ago
Creativity also happened in unlimited environments. That’s why there are many more use cases for computer/laptop.
- Retric 3y ago
  Does it? I find creative solutions very rarely occur when I am actually using a computer rather than sitting back and thinking or going for a walk etc. Computers seem to be awesome tools for refining ideas yet really bad at facilitating their creation.
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    There is no shortage of limitations in real life or on a massively powerful desktop computer. People on desktop are not gods. Nor are they unlimited. I don't know what creative solutions you're talking about but unless we're talking about things making art with limited colors and resolutions which is only necessary because that's what the customer has, there is not much point in limiting oneself artificially unless you are truly stuck otherwise or are doing it for its own sake on some sort of metaphysical quest
    - gizajob 3y ago
      In the case of music and recording, often times better and more creative records were made by people having to devise complicated solutions to having technology with huge limitations - a famous example being that Sgt Pepper by the Beatles was made using tape machines that were limited to four tracks. Hence those involved had to think deeply and be inspired to find solutions to “defeat the machine” (in the words of Paul McCartney). Compare this to the state of affairs today where people are virtually “gods” in terms of power - the number of audio tracks, sounds, editing capabilities of someone using Logic is essentially unlimited, and yet music hasn’t responded very much to the technology because now the machine is incredible and powerful to the point where it basically cannot be defeated - almost nobody can even come close to utilising the power and capabilities offered. We haven’t had an explosion of novel forms and a wealth of newness, people just use them to clone what was produced in the past but cheaper and more quickly. The horizon of the canvas of a DAW is really too huge to ever get to the end of, and it’s almost overwhelming for most artists to rise to the challenge of, so they just stick with the limitations and live an easier life. There’s been no great flourishing of 21st century music with the emergence of this power, we’re mostly stuck in forms and genres created in the 20th century. There’s also an analogous situation in hip-hop with the very limited SP-1200 and MPC 60 samplers. They don’t do much but what they do, they do well, so it’s up to producers to work to that and try to transcend it. Having an unlimited workspace in the computer to replicate the same doesn’t lead to better hip hop. So you’re right to invoke metaphysics, because the machines have a kind of ontology, same as the mode of life of the artists using them. It doesn’t have to be a metaphysical quest, but there can be better and more interesting ways of creating on limited tools, particularly if you’ve used them for a long time. Some writers such as Jean Baudrillard stuck with typewriters as a writing tool long after the introduction of the desktop computer (he died in 2007) because he found it was simpler and better, less distracting, more focussed on the word and him. You could invoke the same “omfg you could be pasting in hyperlinks and doing referencing and surfing at the same time you’re just doing it for your own sake!” toward someone like that, but actually it’s not for its own sake, he only needs to think and produce text and it’s the perfect tool for that, the computer is only ever pretending to be a typewriter and comes with a load of noise and headache alongside.
      - 3y ago
madeofpalk 3y ago
You think that Jason Snell, completely sold into the iPad-only lifestyle for many years, who records and edits podcasts on his iPad, is limited by his perception of iPad's ability?
- linster 3y ago
  This is rage farming. Parent post says using a limited tool well is fine, can lead to good results. “The best camera is the one you have with you” is common photography advice Whether or not the author is limited by his perception of iPad’s ability is needless hair-splitting.
thrashh 3y ago
In this case, the limitation is more on developers of iPad apps than users. It’s making developers more creative but I don’t think it’s making users more creative.
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  there is nothing creative about swiping on an app to update a feed of algorithmic nonsense, true. which is 99% of what people do on phones in my experience. even tablets.
  - gizajob 3y ago
    Yeah but it’s not Apple’s fault the general public are lazy and stupid. I’m a creative and don’t do those things so much - I make records and read philosophy and write whatever book takes my fancy on the same device. It’s not Apple’s fault that when given a handheld supercomputer people use it for instagram - a black mirror reflects the good and bad of the human and that’s where we are. Steve Jobs really did want to make “a bicycle for the mind* and for some of us it is the most amazing one of those, just for the rest it’s too much power and responsibility, so the Californian capitalists at Infinite Loop are going to profit of them anyway.
    - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
      I do remember breaking my ankle on my bicycle as a child; I don't recall having to jailbreak my bike, though. How does BitTorrent work via the app store by the way? Kappa.
      - gizajob 3y ago
        I think you’re mixing apples and oranges.
        iraqmtpizza 3y ago
        Okay. How does BitTorrent work outside of the app store on iPhone?
saiya-jin 3y ago
Gotta love the discussions on HN about Apple, it doesn't take long till somebody starts arguing that less is better and you don't actually know what you really want and what's the best for you, on Hacker news I guess some people like to be managed and set strict boundaries, but that's a far cry from creativity. If creativity happens, as it always does, its despite these hard limits
- gizajob 3y ago
  Or, “regardless of” these hard limits. I’ve used a PowerBook / MacBook since about 2002, and even had one with me at the time when I was writing, but nevertheless found the iPad Air a perfect tool for the task at hand. I needed to read and write and create, and it did that brilliantly. When I needed to get more involved and manage heaps of files and format them into a multi-gigabyte publication, yeah of course I switched to doing that on a MacBook, but it remains that I wasn’t hamstrung in creative terms by carrying an iPad around all day, and indeed, more inspired by being able to use a computer more often and more effectively. Some of the images in my book were also taken with the iPad, which the MacBook couldn’t have done. So yeah, some limitations but some new freedoms.

zakki 3y ago

Creativity also happened in unlimited environments. That’s why there are many more use cases for computer/laptop.

Retric 3y ago
Does it? I find creative solutions very rarely occur when I am actually using a computer rather than sitting back and thinking or going for a walk etc. Computers seem to be awesome tools for refining ideas yet really bad at facilitating their creation.
- iraqmtpizza 3y ago
  There is no shortage of limitations in real life or on a massively powerful desktop computer. People on desktop are not gods. Nor are they unlimited. I don't know what creative solutions you're talking about but unless we're talking about things making art with limited colors and resolutions which is only necessary because that's what the customer has, there is not much point in limiting oneself artificially unless you are truly stuck otherwise or are doing it for its own sake on some sort of metaphysical quest
  - gizajob 3y ago
    In the case of music and recording, often times better and more creative records were made by people having to devise complicated solutions to having technology with huge limitations - a famous example being that Sgt Pepper by the Beatles was made using tape machines that were limited to four tracks. Hence those involved had to think deeply and be inspired to find solutions to “defeat the machine” (in the words of Paul McCartney). Compare this to the state of affairs today where people are virtually “gods” in terms of power - the number of audio tracks, sounds, editing capabilities of someone using Logic is essentially unlimited, and yet music hasn’t responded very much to the technology because now the machine is incredible and powerful to the point where it basically cannot be defeated - almost nobody can even come close to utilising the power and capabilities offered. We haven’t had an explosion of novel forms and a wealth of newness, people just use them to clone what was produced in the past but cheaper and more quickly. The horizon of the canvas of a DAW is really too huge to ever get to the end of, and it’s almost overwhelming for most artists to rise to the challenge of, so they just stick with the limitations and live an easier life. There’s been no great flourishing of 21st century music with the emergence of this power, we’re mostly stuck in forms and genres created in the 20th century. There’s also an analogous situation in hip-hop with the very limited SP-1200 and MPC 60 samplers. They don’t do much but what they do, they do well, so it’s up to producers to work to that and try to transcend it. Having an unlimited workspace in the computer to replicate the same doesn’t lead to better hip hop. So you’re right to invoke metaphysics, because the machines have a kind of ontology, same as the mode of life of the artists using them. It doesn’t have to be a metaphysical quest, but there can be better and more interesting ways of creating on limited tools, particularly if you’ve used them for a long time. Some writers such as Jean Baudrillard stuck with typewriters as a writing tool long after the introduction of the desktop computer (he died in 2007) because he found it was simpler and better, less distracting, more focussed on the word and him. You could invoke the same “omfg you could be pasting in hyperlinks and doing referencing and surfing at the same time you’re just doing it for your own sake!” toward someone like that, but actually it’s not for its own sake, he only needs to think and produce text and it’s the perfect tool for that, the computer is only ever pretending to be a typewriter and comes with a load of noise and headache alongside.
    - 3y ago

madeofpalk 3y ago

You think that Jason Snell, completely sold into the iPad-only lifestyle for many years, who records and edits podcasts on his iPad, is limited by his perception of iPad's ability?

linster 3y ago
This is rage farming. Parent post says using a limited tool well is fine, can lead to good results. “The best camera is the one you have with you” is common photography advice Whether or not the author is limited by his perception of iPad’s ability is needless hair-splitting.

thrashh 3y ago

In this case, the limitation is more on developers of iPad apps than users. It’s making developers more creative but I don’t think it’s making users more creative.

iraqmtpizza 3y ago
there is nothing creative about swiping on an app to update a feed of algorithmic nonsense, true. which is 99% of what people do on phones in my experience. even tablets.
- gizajob 3y ago
  Yeah but it’s not Apple’s fault the general public are lazy and stupid. I’m a creative and don’t do those things so much - I make records and read philosophy and write whatever book takes my fancy on the same device. It’s not Apple’s fault that when given a handheld supercomputer people use it for instagram - a black mirror reflects the good and bad of the human and that’s where we are. Steve Jobs really did want to make “a bicycle for the mind* and for some of us it is the most amazing one of those, just for the rest it’s too much power and responsibility, so the Californian capitalists at Infinite Loop are going to profit of them anyway.
  - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
    I do remember breaking my ankle on my bicycle as a child; I don't recall having to jailbreak my bike, though. How does BitTorrent work via the app store by the way? Kappa.
    - gizajob 3y ago
      I think you’re mixing apples and oranges.
      - iraqmtpizza 3y ago
        Okay. How does BitTorrent work outside of the app store on iPhone?

saiya-jin 3y ago

Gotta love the discussions on HN about Apple, it doesn't take long till somebody starts arguing that less is better and you don't actually know what you really want and what's the best for you, on Hacker news I guess some people like to be managed and set strict boundaries, but that's a far cry from creativity. If creativity happens, as it always does, its despite these hard limits

gizajob 3y ago
Or, “regardless of” these hard limits. I’ve used a PowerBook / MacBook since about 2002, and even had one with me at the time when I was writing, but nevertheless found the iPad Air a perfect tool for the task at hand. I needed to read and write and create, and it did that brilliantly. When I needed to get more involved and manage heaps of files and format them into a multi-gigabyte publication, yeah of course I switched to doing that on a MacBook, but it remains that I wasn’t hamstrung in creative terms by carrying an iPad around all day, and indeed, more inspired by being able to use a computer more often and more effectively. Some of the images in my book were also taken with the iPad, which the MacBook couldn’t have done. So yeah, some limitations but some new freedoms.