3 ms·

Unlike the "survival of the fittest" though, It seems like this often turns into a race to the bottom. If cities/stats were competing primarily based on qualit

Unlike the "survival of the fittest" though, It seems like this often turns into a race to the bottom. If cities/stats were competing primarily based on quality of life/services/infrastructure then that would be great, but instead they often wind up trying to just offer ever more lavish tax incentives.

hotnfresh 3y ago
It’s more like competing to be the most-appetizing wildebeest.
mminer237 3y ago
Individualized tax incentives are usually bad for everyone else, but having lower taxes across the board encourages governments to be more efficient with their resources and directly benefits the citizenry.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  that seems obviously falsifiable. California taxes are quite high and the state of California seems to be a great deal more successful than just about any other state in the nation. It seems like the test has been run and the results are available.
  - kagakuninja 3y ago
    When people move to Texas because there is no income tax, they discover that TX makes up for the difference via higher property tax. I hear anecdotes that for ordinary people, their taxes went up after moving to TX. There is no free lunch. "Red states" tend to favor tax structures that are regressive and place greater burden on low/middle income people. "Blue states" often try and tax wealth and corporate income and use the money to provide more services.
  - mminer237 3y ago
    Are you saying California is rich because it has a high tax rate? I think there may be other geographical and historical reasons for that. Monaco has an even higher GDP and no income tax. Plus, obviously provided services can make up for the lack of taxes. I'm just saying lower taxes, all other things being equal, are a good thing.
adventured 3y ago
It's working exceptionally well for Ireland, which is going to end up far wealthier per capita than England over time (an extreme inversion to the past). Ireland is one of the only nations in Europe with significant economic growth over the past 15 years, they have been drastically out-competing everybody else for growth. Luring in huge numbers of employers, while deriving your taxes from another source (income taxes, real-estate taxes), works just fine. Texas, as an example, makes up for its lack of a personal income tax with other taxes. The state is thriving rather than imploding (which is not the same thing as having no problems at all), despite what its detractors would like to see. I've never seen an example where taxation at a large scale (countries, states) actually turns into a race to the bottom. That's only a theory that has never once come to fruition in actuality. Whereas in actuality what has happened, is that targeted low taxation (eg no state income taxes) is a tremendous competitive advantage if you manage it even somewhat well (offset it with other taxes, and organize it to whatever your state/nation's competitive advantage/s are). Which is why Texas and Florida are expanding, while California and NY are not (despite their former massive advantages). Illinois should be a dramatically better place than what it is in terms of prosperity and quality of life, instead it has been in either a stagnant or moribund condition for a long time, thanks to their poorly managed bureaucracy and relatively high taxation (routinely in the top five in combined local + state income tax rates).
- kagakuninja 3y ago
  California is not imploding. The anecdotes about people abandoning the state to move to TX and FL ignore the fact that the non-wealthy will discover that their taxes in TX are higher (and the weather is terrible, they can't smoke weed, get an abortion, or enjoy LGBTQ rights). Ireland is an example of race-to-the-bottom. Their corporate friendly policies benefit them in the short term, but screw over the rest of the developed world. We need to tax the wealthy and corporations, not compete for the favor of our feudal lords.
bloodyplonker22 3y ago
Why do you think they offer those tax incentives? Could it be that it creates wealth and jobs for the residents of those cities? When AOC and her mob tried to force Amazon out of their NYC expansion and succeeded, Warren Buffet said "it's never a smart move to run rich people out of town".
- kagakuninja 3y ago
  It is race-to-the bottom. It is like all those states offering incentives to get TSMC to build a fab in their state, only to get screwed over.
- magicalist 3y ago
  > When AOC and her mob tried to force Amazon out of their NYC expansion and succeeded, Warren Buffet said "it's never a smart move to run rich people out of town". That...doesn't sound like him and certainly seems at odds with his actual public statements on the topic: https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/25/warren-buffett-amazon-hurt-a-little-by-end-of-nyc-deal.html https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/25/warren-buffett-amazon-...

hotnfresh 3y ago

It’s more like competing to be the most-appetizing wildebeest.

mminer237 3y ago

Individualized tax incentives are usually bad for everyone else, but having lower taxes across the board encourages governments to be more efficient with their resources and directly benefits the citizenry.

idiotsecant 3y ago
that seems obviously falsifiable. California taxes are quite high and the state of California seems to be a great deal more successful than just about any other state in the nation. It seems like the test has been run and the results are available.
- kagakuninja 3y ago
  When people move to Texas because there is no income tax, they discover that TX makes up for the difference via higher property tax. I hear anecdotes that for ordinary people, their taxes went up after moving to TX. There is no free lunch. "Red states" tend to favor tax structures that are regressive and place greater burden on low/middle income people. "Blue states" often try and tax wealth and corporate income and use the money to provide more services.
- mminer237 3y ago
  Are you saying California is rich because it has a high tax rate? I think there may be other geographical and historical reasons for that. Monaco has an even higher GDP and no income tax. Plus, obviously provided services can make up for the lack of taxes. I'm just saying lower taxes, all other things being equal, are a good thing.

adventured 3y ago

It's working exceptionally well for Ireland, which is going to end up far wealthier per capita than England over time (an extreme inversion to the past). Ireland is one of the only nations in Europe with significant economic growth over the past 15 years, they have been drastically out-competing everybody else for growth. Luring in huge numbers of employers, while deriving your taxes from another source (income taxes, real-estate taxes), works just fine. Texas, as an example, makes up for its lack of a personal income tax with other taxes. The state is thriving rather than imploding (which is not the same thing as having no problems at all), despite what its detractors would like to see. I've never seen an example where taxation at a large scale (countries, states) actually turns into a race to the bottom. That's only a theory that has never once come to fruition in actuality. Whereas in actuality what has happened, is that targeted low taxation (eg no state income taxes) is a tremendous competitive advantage if you manage it even somewhat well (offset it with other taxes, and organize it to whatever your state/nation's competitive advantage/s are). Which is why Texas and Florida are expanding, while California and NY are not (despite their former massive advantages). Illinois should be a dramatically better place than what it is in terms of prosperity and quality of life, instead it has been in either a stagnant or moribund condition for a long time, thanks to their poorly managed bureaucracy and relatively high taxation (routinely in the top five in combined local + state income tax rates).

kagakuninja 3y ago
California is not imploding. The anecdotes about people abandoning the state to move to TX and FL ignore the fact that the non-wealthy will discover that their taxes in TX are higher (and the weather is terrible, they can't smoke weed, get an abortion, or enjoy LGBTQ rights). Ireland is an example of race-to-the-bottom. Their corporate friendly policies benefit them in the short term, but screw over the rest of the developed world. We need to tax the wealthy and corporations, not compete for the favor of our feudal lords.

bloodyplonker22 3y ago

Why do you think they offer those tax incentives? Could it be that it creates wealth and jobs for the residents of those cities? When AOC and her mob tried to force Amazon out of their NYC expansion and succeeded, Warren Buffet said "it's never a smart move to run rich people out of town".

kagakuninja 3y ago
It is race-to-the bottom. It is like all those states offering incentives to get TSMC to build a fab in their state, only to get screwed over.
magicalist 3y ago
> When AOC and her mob tried to force Amazon out of their NYC expansion and succeeded, Warren Buffet said "it's never a smart move to run rich people out of town". That...doesn't sound like him and certainly seems at odds with his actual public statements on the topic: https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/25/warren-buffett-amazon-hurt-a-little-by-end-of-nyc-deal.html https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/02/25/warren-buffett-amazon-...