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Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. I'm inclined to bet, most people in the west who self

Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. I'm inclined to bet, most people in the west who self report suffering form poor sleep, can narrow it down to caffeine over-consumption, since it leads you slowly to this march of death burning the candle at both ends where you drink coffee to compensate for poor sleep and you sleep poorly because of too much caffeine.

vincelt 3y ago
True, failed to mention that I never drink caffeine after 2pm. I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine By building tolerance and genetics.
  - amelius 3y ago
    Regarding genetics, are there enzymes that some people lack, and that they can take to digest caffeine better?
    - pillefitz 3y ago
      This one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2. I've read somewhere that eating Broccoli enhances its activity, but likely too much is needed to have noticable effects from what I recall. If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo..
      - salad-tycoon 3y ago
        Of course, that’s called a speed ball. An upper and downer. Also poppers and screamers and small world. “We buy drugs” whitest kids u know : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc Anyways, in all seriousness the idea of taking something and then taking something else later to counteract the effects, not good but popular in black, gray, and white market. I think this weekend I’ll give up caffeine, I’m a slow metabolizer.
        pillefitz 3y ago
        I was thinking more in terms of actual antidote by either binding the active substance or speeding up its metabolism, rather than having two substances acting in opposing directions. Anyway, I gave up caffeine earlier this year and am quite happy with the results. Steady and calm energy, no frantic meandering of thoughts, no clinging to details anymore. Once every few weeks I'm craving the euphoric buzz and drink half an Espresso, but typically regret it later the same day as I'm unable to sleep and, interestingly, tend to wake up in the middle of the night for a couple of days after.
      - amelius 3y ago
        > If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo.. I know that energy drinks use taurine to combat some of the effects of caffeine, but I don't think it will work for sleep.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - fjfuvucucuc 3y ago
    And age. I used to do this fine in my 20s. 30s not so much.
  - growingkittens 3y ago
    Or by having ADHD - coffee before bed can give me just enough focus to fall asleep.
- Lewton 3y ago
  2pm might not be early enough. Depending on genetics the half life of caffeine in your system can vary by a lot. Even if you're in the normal range, a half life of 4-6 hours means that ~25% of the caffeine would still be in your system by midnight... If you're that worried about sleep quality, it's baffling you have not tried cutting out caffeine altogether
  - garrickvanburen 3y ago
    No caffeine after 10am here.
    - balfirevic 3y ago
      None of the statements "no coffee after XX" make sense without specifying when you go to sleep.
      - garrickvanburen 3y ago
        I’m not sure the marginal difference between say 8p and midnight is material with a 10a cutoff.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  For me, caffeine aids sleep. I find it much easier to make myself stop excessively thinking about things when I am caffeinated. However, if I have caffeine too early in the day, it makes it harder to clear my mind and sleep that night than if I had no caffeine at all. For this reason, I aim to only have caffeine after 3pm (preferably later, depending on when I plan to go to bed).
Tenoke 3y ago
You are overgeneralizing from your own experience. It happens to some but most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem You'd be surprised how many people are oblivious to this.
rcarr 3y ago
Came here to say the same thing. My body basically forces me to take breaks, after a couple of months of just one or two coffees a day I’ll eventually be tired to the point where I can’t function properly until I take a week off coffee. I need to quit altogether and get back into exercising, when I get on to a good exercise streak and I’m training for an hour or two every day I rarely feel tired and I always sleep well. It’s just harder to maintain when things get busy.
Dowwie 3y ago
Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption.
- formvoltron 3y ago
  > Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption. This is a myth. Coffee has water in it. Just drink enough water from all sources.
  - bookaway 3y ago
    If it is a myth, it is a very widespread stubbornly persistent myth. If you have links to scientific sources debunking it as a myth that would much appreciated. I came across it most recently in Tom Brady's athletic health book [0]. If I remember correctly, he states that you should drink double the amount of coffee consumed to offset the dehydration effects of coffee. This is simply to emphasize the ubiquitous nature of the myth, as he is someone who has presumably been surrounded by medical professionals for most of his athletic career, and who should have known better if what you say is correct. He singles out proper hydration as a major factor in his peak performance, something he claims younger athletes ignore. [0] https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Performance/dp/1501180738 https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Perfor...
    - UncleMeat 3y ago
      It does not surprise me even one bit that a professional athlete's book on health and nutrition contains health and nutrition myths, especially given other stuff that he has promoted.
    - the-dude 3y ago
      Do you have links to scientific sources acknowledging it?
  - karmakaze 3y ago
masklinn 3y ago
> Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. Probably because it’s the first thing which comes up when people complain about poor sleep. Caffeine consumption is certainly the first thing every doc I’ve seen asked about.
thomasfl 3y ago
Giving up caffein is the single most important thing most people can do to improve sleep quality. Wikipedia says "Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug", so it's obvious why coffee is so addictive for many. It is very hard to stay away from coffee, when it is literally everywhere. Somebody is always brewing coffee at the office, every street corner has a café, every meeting starts with someone serving coffee. It doesn't makes things better living in Norway, which has the worlds second highest coffee consumption per capita.
necessary 3y ago
It has been incredibly hard for me to quit as the consumption of caffeine feels directly tied with work performance and mood for me. It also doesn’t help that I love the taste of coffee and the routine.
- Balgair 3y ago
  There are a lot of good decaf coffees out there. Also teas. You don't have to give up the taste or the ritual to cut back on the caffeine, you don't even have to give up caffeine totally. You can cut down a lot on it too.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    All decafs I tried tasted like ass. And I buy quality beans from the hipster roasters.
    - eyelidlessness 3y ago
      Maybe see if one of those roasters mentions the Swiss water process. IME it makes for quite good decaf (and I too have a hipster’s taste in coffee).
      - IanOzsvald 3y ago
        In the UK I use Redber for beans, I drink decaf (Swiss Water prices) fresh ground in the afternoon and have 2-3 caf cups in the morning. Redber had a wide selection and several roast levels. No caffeine after noon. I use a 2-cup espresso Bialetti stove top, the second smallest.
      - tailspin2019 3y ago
        > Swiss water process Wow, I had never heard of this before. The chemical process for decaf had always put me off before. From their website: [0] > When you see the Swiss Water® name, it means your favorite roaster offers 100% chemical-free decaffeinated coffee. You may have just convinced me to switch to decaf... [0] https://www.swisswater.com https://www.swisswater.com
Balgair 3y ago
I'll chime in here too. I gave up caffeine on a lark during lockdowns. Man, great decision. I've never slept better and my anxiety went way down too. I'd had no idea what that stimulant happened to be doing to my system. I had been tapering down my caffeine consumption too, but going cold turkey had a major difference for me. I'll caution that 3 days of pretty intense headaches were the cost, but for me, the benefits were immense. I still go through a coffee ritual-thingy in the mornings with teas, so that is still nice to have. Others in my family have tried this, but saw no real benefits, so went back on coffee. Your mileage may vary too. Still, I think it's worth a shot if you're having sleeping issues.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago
  teas have caffeine?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Depends what you define as "tea" where you live. Black tea and green tea, like Earl Gray or Matcha, yes they have caffeine. Chamomile or tea of an other non-caffeinated plant boiled in water, no.
- Bombinator 3y ago
  I don't understand going cold turkey. You said it had a difference for you. What was it? I've tapered off before, it probably took like a week at most and I experienced no headaches.
  - Balgair 3y ago
    Even at ~1/4th caf as my once daily cup, I still got ~3 days of headaches when I finally quit entirely. After that, I slept much better. I could finally fall asleep, it wouldn't take me an hour to nod off. I stayed asleep, I wasn't getting up 2-3 times a night. My anxiety, which I then found out contributed to my sleep problems, that pretty much went away. I used to plan and replan scenarios in my head, come up with pithy quips to conversations that would never happen, fear saying or doing the wrong thing in imaginary conundrums. It all just disappeared after I quit caffeine. I felt 'normal' for the first time in decades. I woke up having the best night of sleep in my memory. And then it happened the next morning, and the next. Currently, I don;t sleep all that well, but a new baby is the culprit. I can't imagine having a newborn and being on caffeine again, my anxiety would spiral out of control. I'd be a mess for my kid, projecting things, being a jerk. One of the best little random challenges I ever gave myself.
taylodl 3y ago
I didn't have to go this far. No caffeine after 11 a.m. dramatically improved my sleep. I also limit myself to 2 cups of coffee per day.
zingababba 3y ago
Same, quitting caffeine made a massive difference in my sleep. Daily consumer for 20 years, quitting suuucked and took me probably 20 tries but finally did it. My mind works so much better now.
superultra 3y ago
I’m curious how much coffee you drank, and others who drank coffee, quit, and had similar results. I drink one 10oz cup a day. Occasionally more but rarely. I do love it. Knowing that everyone’s physiology is different, I wonder if I would generally see notable gains in quitting 1 cup a day. I find that the people who say quitting made a difference were often drinking a pot a day. But maybe that is not true for you?
- swah 3y ago
  Yeah - I also always wonder if they also cut the Coke, chocolate, etc.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    I have cut out all forms of caffeine including soda and chocolate, yes. It's great, I feel well rested. If I want soda or chocolate, I make sure to have them before noon, but even still, it's actually noticeable the next day.
- HalfCrimp 3y ago
  It certainly did for me. I was a regular espresso drinker, one in the morning with my wife before work and giving it up has made a world of difference. Even a coffee at 7am was impacting my sleep, I suspect I just metabolise caffeine slowly. I can still have a tea in the morning to replace the ritual, and chocolate doesn't cause me any issues (in moderation) so I'm not 100% caffeine free, but it's made a huge difference to my sleep quality and overall mood. The first week or so felt very sluggish, but one I was sleeping properly I now feel more alert and productive without coffee than I ever did with it. I still have one occasionally (~2 a month I guess) because I enjoy it, but I definitely notice the sleep impact that night and feel crap the next day.
boppo1 3y ago
I'm down to one cup a day in the morning. If I quit entirely, how long until I should notice the benefits? A month?
- ninesnines 3y ago
  I gave up caffeine (tapered off to one cup, was at 6 cups a day and I’m a small human) and I almost immediately noticed my anxiety levels cut by 75%. In terms of sleep, I didn’t notice a huge difference, but I also am not good about setting a calming routine before bed. If caffeine is playing a large role in your insomnia you should feel more able to fall asleep quite quickly . Caffeine can greatly increase cortisol levels and sometimes that can take some time to come down
lacoolj 3y ago
don't know if it was after your comment or not but he has caffeine listed here (mentioned not drinking after 2pm)
baxtr 3y ago
What I found out recently: people are different. Some people have a slow and some a fast caffeine metabolism. I’m a fast metabolizer. I can drink coffee very late and don’t feel anything. A friend of mine stops drinking coffee after 1pm because he won’t sleep otherwise.
- dharma1 3y ago
  I have noticed it takes my body 12h+ to metabolise a single cup of coffee - if I haven’t had it for a while. This trait shows up in genetic tests https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consumption/ https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consu... While I love a good coffee, the sleep cycle mess it causes isn’t worth it for me except very occasionally - this also means there is no tolerance build up. I drink on average one cup of cappuccino every 1-2 weeks, and seek out the good stuff to make it worth it. You really notice the effects too this way vs drinking it daily.

vincelt 3y ago

True, failed to mention that I never drink caffeine after 2pm. I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine By building tolerance and genetics.
- amelius 3y ago
  Regarding genetics, are there enzymes that some people lack, and that they can take to digest caffeine better?
  - pillefitz 3y ago
    This one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2. I've read somewhere that eating Broccoli enhances its activity, but likely too much is needed to have noticable effects from what I recall. If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo..
    - salad-tycoon 3y ago
      Of course, that’s called a speed ball. An upper and downer. Also poppers and screamers and small world. “We buy drugs” whitest kids u know : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc Anyways, in all seriousness the idea of taking something and then taking something else later to counteract the effects, not good but popular in black, gray, and white market. I think this weekend I’ll give up caffeine, I’m a slow metabolizer.
      - pillefitz 3y ago
        I was thinking more in terms of actual antidote by either binding the active substance or speeding up its metabolism, rather than having two substances acting in opposing directions. Anyway, I gave up caffeine earlier this year and am quite happy with the results. Steady and calm energy, no frantic meandering of thoughts, no clinging to details anymore. Once every few weeks I'm craving the euphoric buzz and drink half an Espresso, but typically regret it later the same day as I'm unable to sleep and, interestingly, tend to wake up in the middle of the night for a couple of days after.
    - amelius 3y ago
      > If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo.. I know that energy drinks use taurine to combat some of the effects of caffeine, but I don't think it will work for sleep.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- fjfuvucucuc 3y ago
  And age. I used to do this fine in my 20s. 30s not so much.
- growingkittens 3y ago
  Or by having ADHD - coffee before bed can give me just enough focus to fall asleep.
Lewton 3y ago
2pm might not be early enough. Depending on genetics the half life of caffeine in your system can vary by a lot. Even if you're in the normal range, a half life of 4-6 hours means that ~25% of the caffeine would still be in your system by midnight... If you're that worried about sleep quality, it's baffling you have not tried cutting out caffeine altogether
- garrickvanburen 3y ago
  No caffeine after 10am here.
  - balfirevic 3y ago
    None of the statements "no coffee after XX" make sense without specifying when you go to sleep.
    - garrickvanburen 3y ago
      I’m not sure the marginal difference between say 8p and midnight is material with a 10a cutoff.
RoyalHenOil 3y ago
For me, caffeine aids sleep. I find it much easier to make myself stop excessively thinking about things when I am caffeinated. However, if I have caffeine too early in the day, it makes it harder to clear my mind and sleep that night than if I had no caffeine at all. For this reason, I aim to only have caffeine after 3pm (preferably later, depending on when I plan to go to bed).

Tenoke 3y ago

You are overgeneralizing from your own experience. It happens to some but most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem You'd be surprised how many people are oblivious to this.

rcarr 3y ago

Came here to say the same thing. My body basically forces me to take breaks, after a couple of months of just one or two coffees a day I’ll eventually be tired to the point where I can’t function properly until I take a week off coffee. I need to quit altogether and get back into exercising, when I get on to a good exercise streak and I’m training for an hour or two every day I rarely feel tired and I always sleep well. It’s just harder to maintain when things get busy.

Dowwie 3y ago

Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption.

formvoltron 3y ago
> Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption. This is a myth. Coffee has water in it. Just drink enough water from all sources.
- bookaway 3y ago
  If it is a myth, it is a very widespread stubbornly persistent myth. If you have links to scientific sources debunking it as a myth that would much appreciated. I came across it most recently in Tom Brady's athletic health book [0]. If I remember correctly, he states that you should drink double the amount of coffee consumed to offset the dehydration effects of coffee. This is simply to emphasize the ubiquitous nature of the myth, as he is someone who has presumably been surrounded by medical professionals for most of his athletic career, and who should have known better if what you say is correct. He singles out proper hydration as a major factor in his peak performance, something he claims younger athletes ignore. [0] https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Performance/dp/1501180738 https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Perfor...
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    It does not surprise me even one bit that a professional athlete's book on health and nutrition contains health and nutrition myths, especially given other stuff that he has promoted.
  - the-dude 3y ago
    Do you have links to scientific sources acknowledging it?
- karmakaze 3y ago

masklinn 3y ago

> Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. Probably because it’s the first thing which comes up when people complain about poor sleep. Caffeine consumption is certainly the first thing every doc I’ve seen asked about.

thomasfl 3y ago

Giving up caffein is the single most important thing most people can do to improve sleep quality. Wikipedia says "Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug", so it's obvious why coffee is so addictive for many. It is very hard to stay away from coffee, when it is literally everywhere. Somebody is always brewing coffee at the office, every street corner has a café, every meeting starts with someone serving coffee. It doesn't makes things better living in Norway, which has the worlds second highest coffee consumption per capita.

necessary 3y ago

It has been incredibly hard for me to quit as the consumption of caffeine feels directly tied with work performance and mood for me. It also doesn’t help that I love the taste of coffee and the routine.

Balgair 3y ago
There are a lot of good decaf coffees out there. Also teas. You don't have to give up the taste or the ritual to cut back on the caffeine, you don't even have to give up caffeine totally. You can cut down a lot on it too.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  All decafs I tried tasted like ass. And I buy quality beans from the hipster roasters.
  - eyelidlessness 3y ago
    Maybe see if one of those roasters mentions the Swiss water process. IME it makes for quite good decaf (and I too have a hipster’s taste in coffee).
    - IanOzsvald 3y ago
      In the UK I use Redber for beans, I drink decaf (Swiss Water prices) fresh ground in the afternoon and have 2-3 caf cups in the morning. Redber had a wide selection and several roast levels. No caffeine after noon. I use a 2-cup espresso Bialetti stove top, the second smallest.
    - tailspin2019 3y ago
      > Swiss water process Wow, I had never heard of this before. The chemical process for decaf had always put me off before. From their website: [0] > When you see the Swiss Water® name, it means your favorite roaster offers 100% chemical-free decaffeinated coffee. You may have just convinced me to switch to decaf... [0] https://www.swisswater.com https://www.swisswater.com

Balgair 3y ago

I'll chime in here too. I gave up caffeine on a lark during lockdowns. Man, great decision. I've never slept better and my anxiety went way down too. I'd had no idea what that stimulant happened to be doing to my system. I had been tapering down my caffeine consumption too, but going cold turkey had a major difference for me. I'll caution that 3 days of pretty intense headaches were the cost, but for me, the benefits were immense. I still go through a coffee ritual-thingy in the mornings with teas, so that is still nice to have. Others in my family have tried this, but saw no real benefits, so went back on coffee. Your mileage may vary too. Still, I think it's worth a shot if you're having sleeping issues.

MuffinFlavored 3y ago
teas have caffeine?
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Depends what you define as "tea" where you live. Black tea and green tea, like Earl Gray or Matcha, yes they have caffeine. Chamomile or tea of an other non-caffeinated plant boiled in water, no.
Bombinator 3y ago
I don't understand going cold turkey. You said it had a difference for you. What was it? I've tapered off before, it probably took like a week at most and I experienced no headaches.
- Balgair 3y ago
  Even at ~1/4th caf as my once daily cup, I still got ~3 days of headaches when I finally quit entirely. After that, I slept much better. I could finally fall asleep, it wouldn't take me an hour to nod off. I stayed asleep, I wasn't getting up 2-3 times a night. My anxiety, which I then found out contributed to my sleep problems, that pretty much went away. I used to plan and replan scenarios in my head, come up with pithy quips to conversations that would never happen, fear saying or doing the wrong thing in imaginary conundrums. It all just disappeared after I quit caffeine. I felt 'normal' for the first time in decades. I woke up having the best night of sleep in my memory. And then it happened the next morning, and the next. Currently, I don;t sleep all that well, but a new baby is the culprit. I can't imagine having a newborn and being on caffeine again, my anxiety would spiral out of control. I'd be a mess for my kid, projecting things, being a jerk. One of the best little random challenges I ever gave myself.

taylodl 3y ago

I didn't have to go this far. No caffeine after 11 a.m. dramatically improved my sleep. I also limit myself to 2 cups of coffee per day.

zingababba 3y ago

Same, quitting caffeine made a massive difference in my sleep. Daily consumer for 20 years, quitting suuucked and took me probably 20 tries but finally did it. My mind works so much better now.

superultra 3y ago

I’m curious how much coffee you drank, and others who drank coffee, quit, and had similar results. I drink one 10oz cup a day. Occasionally more but rarely. I do love it. Knowing that everyone’s physiology is different, I wonder if I would generally see notable gains in quitting 1 cup a day. I find that the people who say quitting made a difference were often drinking a pot a day. But maybe that is not true for you?

swah 3y ago
Yeah - I also always wonder if they also cut the Coke, chocolate, etc.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  I have cut out all forms of caffeine including soda and chocolate, yes. It's great, I feel well rested. If I want soda or chocolate, I make sure to have them before noon, but even still, it's actually noticeable the next day.
HalfCrimp 3y ago
It certainly did for me. I was a regular espresso drinker, one in the morning with my wife before work and giving it up has made a world of difference. Even a coffee at 7am was impacting my sleep, I suspect I just metabolise caffeine slowly. I can still have a tea in the morning to replace the ritual, and chocolate doesn't cause me any issues (in moderation) so I'm not 100% caffeine free, but it's made a huge difference to my sleep quality and overall mood. The first week or so felt very sluggish, but one I was sleeping properly I now feel more alert and productive without coffee than I ever did with it. I still have one occasionally (~2 a month I guess) because I enjoy it, but I definitely notice the sleep impact that night and feel crap the next day.

boppo1 3y ago

I'm down to one cup a day in the morning. If I quit entirely, how long until I should notice the benefits? A month?

ninesnines 3y ago
I gave up caffeine (tapered off to one cup, was at 6 cups a day and I’m a small human) and I almost immediately noticed my anxiety levels cut by 75%. In terms of sleep, I didn’t notice a huge difference, but I also am not good about setting a calming routine before bed. If caffeine is playing a large role in your insomnia you should feel more able to fall asleep quite quickly . Caffeine can greatly increase cortisol levels and sometimes that can take some time to come down

lacoolj 3y ago

don't know if it was after your comment or not but he has caffeine listed here (mentioned not drinking after 2pm)

baxtr 3y ago

What I found out recently: people are different. Some people have a slow and some a fast caffeine metabolism. I’m a fast metabolizer. I can drink coffee very late and don’t feel anything. A friend of mine stops drinking coffee after 1pm because he won’t sleep otherwise.

dharma1 3y ago
I have noticed it takes my body 12h+ to metabolise a single cup of coffee - if I haven’t had it for a while. This trait shows up in genetic tests https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consumption/ https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consu... While I love a good coffee, the sleep cycle mess it causes isn’t worth it for me except very occasionally - this also means there is no tolerance build up. I drink on average one cup of cappuccino every 1-2 weeks, and seek out the good stuff to make it worth it. You really notice the effects too this way vs drinking it daily.