4 ms·

A better alternative would've been to develop breeder reactors and reprocess this "waste" into more fuel and a much smaller amount of true waste, which would be

by fuoqi 3y ago

A better alternative would've been to develop breeder reactors and reprocess this "waste" into more fuel and a much smaller amount of true waste, which would be somewhat safe after several thousands years (it still would be a chemical hazard, but not a strongly radioactive one). But I have very little hope that such technology will be developed in the West in the next decades...

nine_k 3y ago
But they breed plutonium! There's some moral panic about possible siphoning of it, and nuclear proliferation. I think it's a bit late to emphasize this concern, when even North Korea has nukes.
- fuoqi 3y ago
  Surprise-surprise, but spent fuel rods contain plutonium (~1%) as well. The idea is that you build breeder reactors and do reprocessing in countries which already have nuclear weapons, while other countries get completed fuel rods for the classic PWRs. You prevent siphoning by mandating that all spent fuel rods must be returned to the country of origin.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    That would never work for human reasons. Specifically, a non-nuclear nation will never want their energy security to depend on the goodwill of nuclear nations. At any time, those nuclear nations could turn around and jack the price of fuel rods 100x, while also denying the non-nuclear nations the ability to make their own with the threat of sanctions or war.
    - pasc1878 3y ago
      So the same issue as oil - and actually any resource you have to get. Most resources are only found in limited places on Earth.
      - photochemsyn 3y ago
        Like sunlight and wind?
        pasc1878 3y ago
        I did say most. But in those cases yes - sunshine is not there for at least half the time and some areas have rather a lot of clouds. Wind also some areas e.g. NW Europe have a lot but others don't.
        Phrenzy 3y ago
        Yeah, kinda of. Not a lot of sunlight in Northern Europe. Not a lot of wind in some areas.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      Japan used UK and French reprocessing facilities for almost twenty years: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/transport-of-nuclear-materials/japanese-waste-and-mox-shipments-from-europe.aspx https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c...
    - m4rtink 3y ago
      Its like that already even for nuclear plant technology and support. And unlike with oil or coal, you can (and many do) stockpile years worth of fuel rods, just in case you need to find another suplier.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > At any time, those nuclear nations could turn around and jack the price of fuel rods 100x, while also denying the non-nuclear nations the ability to make their own with the threat of sanctions or war. That's assuming they act as a cartel. But if the US tried to do this, Russia would sell them the material just to stick it to the US, and vice versa. Not only that, the top four countries for energy production representing more than half of global power generation are all nuclear nations. The countries in the top 10 without nuclear weapons are Japan, Brazil, Canada, South Korea and Germany, of which only Brazil would have any significant concern about being cut off by western nuclear powers. And Brazil is at an equatorial latitude that implies they would benefit from a higher proportion of solar regardless.
      - nine_k 3y ago
        Japan also has its own nuclear industry; they are likely a few months from constructing a nuclear weapon if need be. Their constitution limits their military to self-defense though, so they don't have a doctrinal need to build nukes.
pfdietz 3y ago
Better in some sense, but it would be even more expensive than the burner reactors we have now. That's why breeder reactors haven't caught on.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  Moltex thinks their SSR-W can burn existing waste for cheaper. It will be interesting to see if they succeed.
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    I am very dubious that Moltex's cost estimates are legitimate.
    - p1mrx 3y ago
      Holding molten fuel in a small container and extracting heat via convection is quite interesting. The idea seems obvious, but Oak Ridge never tried because they were designing an aircraft reactor that couldn't rely on gravity.

by fuoqi 3y ago

nine_k 3y ago

But they breed plutonium! There's some moral panic about possible siphoning of it, and nuclear proliferation. I think it's a bit late to emphasize this concern, when even North Korea has nukes.

fuoqi 3y ago
Surprise-surprise, but spent fuel rods contain plutonium (~1%) as well. The idea is that you build breeder reactors and do reprocessing in countries which already have nuclear weapons, while other countries get completed fuel rods for the classic PWRs. You prevent siphoning by mandating that all spent fuel rods must be returned to the country of origin.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  That would never work for human reasons. Specifically, a non-nuclear nation will never want their energy security to depend on the goodwill of nuclear nations. At any time, those nuclear nations could turn around and jack the price of fuel rods 100x, while also denying the non-nuclear nations the ability to make their own with the threat of sanctions or war.
  - pasc1878 3y ago
    So the same issue as oil - and actually any resource you have to get. Most resources are only found in limited places on Earth.
    - photochemsyn 3y ago
      Like sunlight and wind?
      - pasc1878 3y ago
        I did say most. But in those cases yes - sunshine is not there for at least half the time and some areas have rather a lot of clouds. Wind also some areas e.g. NW Europe have a lot but others don't.
      - Phrenzy 3y ago
        Yeah, kinda of. Not a lot of sunlight in Northern Europe. Not a lot of wind in some areas.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Japan used UK and French reprocessing facilities for almost twenty years: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/transport-of-nuclear-materials/japanese-waste-and-mox-shipments-from-europe.aspx https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-c...
  - m4rtink 3y ago
    Its like that already even for nuclear plant technology and support. And unlike with oil or coal, you can (and many do) stockpile years worth of fuel rods, just in case you need to find another suplier.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > At any time, those nuclear nations could turn around and jack the price of fuel rods 100x, while also denying the non-nuclear nations the ability to make their own with the threat of sanctions or war. That's assuming they act as a cartel. But if the US tried to do this, Russia would sell them the material just to stick it to the US, and vice versa. Not only that, the top four countries for energy production representing more than half of global power generation are all nuclear nations. The countries in the top 10 without nuclear weapons are Japan, Brazil, Canada, South Korea and Germany, of which only Brazil would have any significant concern about being cut off by western nuclear powers. And Brazil is at an equatorial latitude that implies they would benefit from a higher proportion of solar regardless.
    - nine_k 3y ago
      Japan also has its own nuclear industry; they are likely a few months from constructing a nuclear weapon if need be. Their constitution limits their military to self-defense though, so they don't have a doctrinal need to build nukes.

pfdietz 3y ago

Better in some sense, but it would be even more expensive than the burner reactors we have now. That's why breeder reactors haven't caught on.

p1mrx 3y ago
Moltex thinks their SSR-W can burn existing waste for cheaper. It will be interesting to see if they succeed.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  I am very dubious that Moltex's cost estimates are legitimate.
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    Holding molten fuel in a small container and extracting heat via convection is quite interesting. The idea seems obvious, but Oak Ridge never tried because they were designing an aircraft reactor that couldn't rely on gravity.