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I'm curious if these 750MB + the DNA of mitochondria + the protein metagenomics contain all the information needed to build a human, or if there's extra info st

I'm curious if these 750MB + the DNA of mitochondria + the protein metagenomics contain all the information needed to build a human, or if there's extra info stored in the machinery of the first cell. That is if we transfer the DNA to an advanced alien civilization - would they be able to make a human.

ejstronge 3y ago
> That is if we transfer the DNA to an advanced alien civilization - would they be able to make a human. You'd need a cell to start the process, with the various nucleic acids distributed correctly and proteins/energy with which to create further proteins using the information encoded by the DNA. Thus the civilization would need information about cells and a set of building blocks before being able to use the DNA.
- borissk 3y ago
  The DNA contains all the code that creates and regulates the proteins.
  - penteract 3y ago
    Including code for the proteins that read DNA to produce proteins. You might hit similar problems trying to understand C given the source code for a C compiler - a non-standard environment could reproduce itself given the source code, meaning the code alone doesn't strictly determine the output.
    - kibibyte 3y ago
      I'll torture this DNA and C source code analogy a bit. Epigenetics is missing in this discussion about reproducing a human from just the DNA. These are superficial modifications (e.g. methylation, histone modification, repressor factors) to a strand of DNA that can drastically alter how specific regions get expressed into proteins. These mechanisms essentially work by either hiding or unhiding DNA from RNA polymerases and other parts of the transcription complex. These mechanisms can change throughout your lifetime because of environmental factors and can be inherited. So it's like reading C source code, except there so many of these inscrutable C preprocessor directives strewn all throughout. You won't get a successful compilation by turning on or off all the directives. Instead, you need to get this similarly inscrutable configuration blob that tells you how to set each directive. I guess in a way, it's like the weights for an ML model. It just works, you can't explain why it works, and changing this weight here produces a program that crashes prematurely, and changing a weight there produces a program with allergic reactions to everything.
      - pfdietz 3y ago
        There's also postprocessing: varying modification of the RNA, RNA interference, glycosylation and other post transcriptional modifications.
  - khazhoux 3y ago
    And how will you decode it?
senkora 3y ago
I can’t wait until we can bootstrap a human from a stage 3 tarball.
dekhn 3y ago
This is a complex question. The cocktail soup in a gamete (sperm or egg) and the resulting zygote contains an awful lot of stuff that would be extremely hard to replace. I could imagine that if the receiving civilization was sufficiently advanced and had a model of what those cells contained (beyond the genomic information) they could build some sort of artificial cell that could bootstrap the genome to the point of being able to start the development process. it would be quite an accomplishment. If they just received the DNA without some information about the zygote, I don't think it would be practical for even advanced alien civilization (LR5 or LR6) but probably an LR7 and definitely an LR8 could.
- borissk 3y ago
  The code how to build a sperm and an egg is inside the human DNA, isn't it?
  - dekhn 3y ago
    Yes, but it currently requires developmentally mature individuals to build the gametes, and the "code" is so complex you couldn't really decipher it from first principles.
  - tobinfricke 3y ago
    The code to build mitochondria is not.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    Given code written for unknown hardware... can you execute it?
    - borissk 3y ago
      Given that the code contains the instructions how to make the hardware - if one is very smart than yes.
      - bbrx 3y ago
singularity2001 3y ago
Our DNA does not contain the mitochondria nor the gut bacteria so the raw data would most certainly not be enough to build a working copy
mfld 3y ago
Yes, there is extra information in the first cells, in particular regulatory elements such as miRNAs. The headline here is epigenetics.
- cvoss 3y ago
  There's also some interesting work on understanding the roll of loops in the physical structure of the DNA storage on gene expression. [0] The base sequence of the DNA isn't everything; it may also matter how the DNA gets laid out in space---a feature which can be inherited. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2638769/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2638769/
pmoriarty 3y ago
"if we transfer the DNA to an advanced alien civilization - would they be able to make a human." I'm really surprised that in all these responses to your question no one's mentioned the womb or the mother, who (at least with current technology) is still necessary for making a human. That's not to mention the necessity of the egg. We're not just DNA.
- borissk 3y ago
  Instructions on how to make a womb and an "egg" are contained within the human DNA.
  - wizofaus 3y ago
    But maybe you needed a pre-human womb to bootstrap the first human, and we no longer have the blueprint for that...
  - crdrost 3y ago
    It is known that that is not true, due to the distinct genetic code of mitochondria and known epigenetic influences of mothers on their children in utero. You could say “well that's the last 10% of the details, maybe 90% is in the DNA,” but I think I would be suspicious that it's that high, because one of the things we know about humans is that we are born with all of the ova that we will ever have, rather than deferring the process until puberty. I should think that if it could be deferred it would have been, “you will spend the energy to make these 15 years before you need to for no real reason” seems very unlike evolution whereas “my body is going to teach you how to make these eggs, just the same as my mother's body taught me,” sounds quite evolutionarily reasonable.
- dchftcs 3y ago
  This is a question about theoretical possibilities and what you're saying seems to be a rigid belief in an answer "no". But you provided no evidence or justification, except for "with current technology", which answers nothing about the theoretical question.
- dekhn 3y ago
mjan22640 3y ago
Imagine a machine shop that has blueprints of components of the machines they use in the shop, and processes to assemble machines from the components. When a machine shop grows large and splits in two, each inherits a half of shop with the ongoing processes and a copy of the blueprints. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7PMf7bBczQ&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7PMf7bBczQ&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D DNA is the blueprints. There are infinite possibilities what to do with them. The advanced civilization would need additional information, like that they are supposed create a cell from the components to begin with, and a lot of detailed information how exactly to do that. Edit: improved clarity
kovacs_x 3y ago
it's bit like- if i have source code of Linux (think DNA), can I build a machine running Linux? (think cell). no- you cant, you need to have machine that can run the code. ie. "software" without "machine" to run it on, is kind of a useless.

ejstronge 3y ago

> That is if we transfer the DNA to an advanced alien civilization - would they be able to make a human. You'd need a cell to start the process, with the various nucleic acids distributed correctly and proteins/energy with which to create further proteins using the information encoded by the DNA. Thus the civilization would need information about cells and a set of building blocks before being able to use the DNA.

borissk 3y ago
The DNA contains all the code that creates and regulates the proteins.
- penteract 3y ago
  Including code for the proteins that read DNA to produce proteins. You might hit similar problems trying to understand C given the source code for a C compiler - a non-standard environment could reproduce itself given the source code, meaning the code alone doesn't strictly determine the output.
  - kibibyte 3y ago
    I'll torture this DNA and C source code analogy a bit. Epigenetics is missing in this discussion about reproducing a human from just the DNA. These are superficial modifications (e.g. methylation, histone modification, repressor factors) to a strand of DNA that can drastically alter how specific regions get expressed into proteins. These mechanisms essentially work by either hiding or unhiding DNA from RNA polymerases and other parts of the transcription complex. These mechanisms can change throughout your lifetime because of environmental factors and can be inherited. So it's like reading C source code, except there so many of these inscrutable C preprocessor directives strewn all throughout. You won't get a successful compilation by turning on or off all the directives. Instead, you need to get this similarly inscrutable configuration blob that tells you how to set each directive. I guess in a way, it's like the weights for an ML model. It just works, you can't explain why it works, and changing this weight here produces a program that crashes prematurely, and changing a weight there produces a program with allergic reactions to everything.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      There's also postprocessing: varying modification of the RNA, RNA interference, glycosylation and other post transcriptional modifications.
- khazhoux 3y ago
  And how will you decode it?

senkora 3y ago

I can’t wait until we can bootstrap a human from a stage 3 tarball.

dekhn 3y ago

This is a complex question. The cocktail soup in a gamete (sperm or egg) and the resulting zygote contains an awful lot of stuff that would be extremely hard to replace. I could imagine that if the receiving civilization was sufficiently advanced and had a model of what those cells contained (beyond the genomic information) they could build some sort of artificial cell that could bootstrap the genome to the point of being able to start the development process. it would be quite an accomplishment. If they just received the DNA without some information about the zygote, I don't think it would be practical for even advanced alien civilization (LR5 or LR6) but probably an LR7 and definitely an LR8 could.

borissk 3y ago
The code how to build a sperm and an egg is inside the human DNA, isn't it?
- dekhn 3y ago
  Yes, but it currently requires developmentally mature individuals to build the gametes, and the "code" is so complex you couldn't really decipher it from first principles.
- tobinfricke 3y ago
  The code to build mitochondria is not.
- klyrs 3y ago
  Given code written for unknown hardware... can you execute it?
  - borissk 3y ago
    Given that the code contains the instructions how to make the hardware - if one is very smart than yes.
    - bbrx 3y ago

singularity2001 3y ago

Our DNA does not contain the mitochondria nor the gut bacteria so the raw data would most certainly not be enough to build a working copy

mfld 3y ago

Yes, there is extra information in the first cells, in particular regulatory elements such as miRNAs. The headline here is epigenetics.

cvoss 3y ago
There's also some interesting work on understanding the roll of loops in the physical structure of the DNA storage on gene expression. [0] The base sequence of the DNA isn't everything; it may also matter how the DNA gets laid out in space---a feature which can be inherited. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2638769/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2638769/

pmoriarty 3y ago

"if we transfer the DNA to an advanced alien civilization - would they be able to make a human." I'm really surprised that in all these responses to your question no one's mentioned the womb or the mother, who (at least with current technology) is still necessary for making a human. That's not to mention the necessity of the egg. We're not just DNA.

borissk 3y ago
Instructions on how to make a womb and an "egg" are contained within the human DNA.
- wizofaus 3y ago
  But maybe you needed a pre-human womb to bootstrap the first human, and we no longer have the blueprint for that...
- crdrost 3y ago
  It is known that that is not true, due to the distinct genetic code of mitochondria and known epigenetic influences of mothers on their children in utero. You could say “well that's the last 10% of the details, maybe 90% is in the DNA,” but I think I would be suspicious that it's that high, because one of the things we know about humans is that we are born with all of the ova that we will ever have, rather than deferring the process until puberty. I should think that if it could be deferred it would have been, “you will spend the energy to make these 15 years before you need to for no real reason” seems very unlike evolution whereas “my body is going to teach you how to make these eggs, just the same as my mother's body taught me,” sounds quite evolutionarily reasonable.
dchftcs 3y ago
This is a question about theoretical possibilities and what you're saying seems to be a rigid belief in an answer "no". But you provided no evidence or justification, except for "with current technology", which answers nothing about the theoretical question.
dekhn 3y ago

mjan22640 3y ago

Imagine a machine shop that has blueprints of components of the machines they use in the shop, and processes to assemble machines from the components. When a machine shop grows large and splits in two, each inherits a half of shop with the ongoing processes and a copy of the blueprints. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7PMf7bBczQ&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B7PMf7bBczQ&pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D DNA is the blueprints. There are infinite possibilities what to do with them. The advanced civilization would need additional information, like that they are supposed create a cell from the components to begin with, and a lot of detailed information how exactly to do that. Edit: improved clarity

kovacs_x 3y ago

it's bit like- if i have source code of Linux (think DNA), can I build a machine running Linux? (think cell). no- you cant, you need to have machine that can run the code. ie. "software" without "machine" to run it on, is kind of a useless.