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Everybody is joking half sarcastically here but childbirth as a process in hospitals do have serious problems and modern day labour leaves deep mental scars in

by croo 3y ago

Everybody is joking half sarcastically here but childbirth as a process in hospitals do have serious problems and modern day labour leaves deep mental scars in most women while being one of the most important thing in their life. This is definitely a step in the wrong direction however laughable the idea is. Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. It's just the most comfortable position for the _doctor_. Giving birth is similar to the act of vomiting in the sense that you don't have to do anything, it happens to you when the circumstances call for it. Using this method is as bad idea as to use this method to make the centripetal forces pull the content of your stomach out. It may happen but not for the reasons described. I cannot describe well enough how utterly stupid this idea is...

drekipus 3y ago
Thanks for sharing this. It's so crucial to know that we have actually lost this information and we're getting worse. >Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. My wife and I were shocked when we had our first. We were recommended a "natural birth" course that taught us this, and everyone gave us crap about being "woo-woo" and "denying science". Everyone. We also had to forcibly tell doctors "no" to forceps, pumps, drugs, and all the interventions. They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. The birth of our first was not too difficult (her words), she did it her way, listened to his she was feeling, followed her gut, and I just had to run interference. Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe yet. It still has the cord for everything they need. Now we're having a second and we're gonna go home birth. The morphology scans can't seem to decide if we're at 18 weeks or 19 weeks. Due dates my ass.
- awestroke 3y ago
  cord wrapped around the neck can potentially block blood flow to the brain, causing brain damage
- zulban 3y ago
  > home birth Isn't the rate of complications higher at home than in a hospital? Statistics is your friend here. Not sure I would want my wife to experience pre-hospital rates of complications. Maybe tough to study tho, as I'm sure women who have had smoother pregnancies (or a good first like your wife) are the ones more likely to home birth.
  - drekipus 3y ago
    If you don't count "complications caused by intervention" and things like that, then no it isn't. We've decided that it will be safer and more comfortable for us to do it at home with professional help. Thankfully the public hospital here had a home birthing unit, which was only started about 3 years ago.
    - anotherhue 3y ago
      I was amazed at how many complications were caused by their scheduling decisions.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        There's a maternity hospital near me that we learned (through experience) has a simple method for simplifying scheduling: approximately everyone gets booked for an oxitocin-induced birth.
  - soudiere 3y ago
    Rate of complications will be the same, outcomes from those complications won't be the same. Accident rates on the highway might be say, equal among people who do/don't wear seatbelts, but outcomes are not. Look at common complications, like postpartum hemmorrhage (usually > 500 ml blood loss). "estimated 76.7m delivery hospitalizations, 2.3 million (3.0%) were complicated by postpartum hemorrhage. From 2000 to 2019, the rate of postpartum hemorrhage increased from 2.7% to 4.3% ... proportion of deliveries to individuals with at least one postpartum hemorrhage risk factor increased from 18.6% to 26.9% ." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36701615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36701615/ Bottom line with a home birth, everyones training is around when things go smooth. Medical center is where people have thousands of hours of training on how to save your life.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. There's no relationship between those two things. The "do you feel safe at home" questions are required by law; I get them whenever I visit a hospital, including when I go by myself with a question about toenail fungus.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  By the looks of it you are denying science... Hopefully you live close enough to a hospital. Pregnancy complications can happen suddenly and require immediate medical assistance.
  - luc4sdreyer 3y ago
    DIY health is all fun and games until something goes wrong, and then suddenly the experts are important again. For some reason the experts apparently don't really understand the "simple" things that can be attempted at home.
  - lionkor 3y ago
    > denying science science isnt a religion, you cant deny it or follow it, there is a rigorous process and sometimes the results are wrong, misleading, or lead to the wrong decisions. Do not pretend there's an absolute in science, especially medicine, where one can say "this is the only good way" and know it to be true.
    - BurningFrog 3y ago
      "Denying science" usually means denying scientifically proven facts.
      - javier123454321 3y ago
        https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2022/04/10-strange-medical-practices-from-history/ https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2022/04/10-strange-... You seem to be denying the scientifically proven facts that science gets things wrong... constantly... to the detriments of people suffering the catastrophic effects of those errors.
        soudiere 3y ago
        Humor me, what did science actually get wrong in this article? The milk transfusions were shitty solution for lack of blood during a cholera epidemic, but the articles claims are false "In the late 19th century, milk was believed to be the perfect substitute for blood" Soothing syrup did it's job (pain), we now shy from it because of perception of risks, but no one's ever run clinical trials on small amounts of alcohol + opioids on childrens gums showing any adverse outcomes. Chloroform is an effective treatment for asthma, and the best we had before the discovery of beta-2 receptor agonists. See this paper for details on the physiology in mice. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5702405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5702405/ Cocaine (stimulant) is also likely a somewhat effective treatment for allergies. Take a look at this clinical trial which showed antihistamine + ritalin being a more effective treatment. https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(04)00017-X/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(04)00017-X/ful... Malaria for treatment of syphilis also makes sense, it was incurable at the time, and the other options were mercury based, ineffective and had horrific side effects. Malaria was better than mercury. Tobacco enemas can be thought of as a large nicotine delivery mechanism. Newspaper clip says it's helpful with meningitis, inflammation of the brain, nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, crosses the blood brain barrier. Maybe it did something, who knows.
- lovasoa 3y ago
  > [...] although planned home birth is associated with fewer maternal interventions than planned hospital birth, it also is associated with a more than twofold increased risk of perinatal death (1–2 in 1,000) and a threefold increased risk of neonatal seizures or serious neurologic dysfunction (0.4–0.6 in 1,000). https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/planned-home-birth https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
  - secstate 3y ago
    I mean, they did say "everyone" so I suppose the science drop was not unexpected :)
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  The term "run interference" is so much more accurate than I think folks who've never done this realize. My wife submitted a birth plan that explicitly stated no drugs except in the case of emergency. After the fourth time one of the floor nurses asked my wife if she was ready for her epidural I ended up gently insisting she not step foot in our room again. On three occasions I physically barred entry to the room to a lab tech that thought 3am was an appropriate time to do routine blood draws. Twice I caught and stopped a group of 10 (!!) med students about to enter the room for no medically obvious purpose. To the extent that there was any peace during or after my wife giving birth it was because I was belligerenly guarding the door.
  - ralphc 3y ago
    I applaud all that with the possible exception of the routine blood draws. Not for childbirth but both my wife and I have been in the hospital and appreciated the monitoring. Things can go south quickly on many medical issues, wouldn't a timely blood test catch things early?
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      It’s difficult unless you know how the hospital works. If you’re recovering on the standard medical floor, they follow some idiotic process ordered by a hospitalist whom you’ll never see. Basically you’re there because some rule says so. If you’re on an OB floor, ICU, PACU, or dedicated unit, you’d better know why she’s there and they are doing those blood draws as you’re putting mom at risk for a variety of problems. If all is well, she’s going home in a day or two, and being an obstructionist is just delaying that process and an actual good nights sleep.
    - forgetfreeman 3y ago
      I'd say it's situational. In this particular instance my wife showed no signs of any complications before, during, or after the birth and the labwork was as much to do with billing our insurance as anything else. They still got to do all of the labwork they wanted, just a few hours later at a more reasonable time of day.
  - 3y ago
- mahopa 3y ago
  Asking about abuse is a standard question in the US now during hospital interactions not just births and not just natural births.
- VeninVidiaVicii 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing. This lines up so well with my experience as a translator in the ER — doctors are constantly catastrophizing and make it seem like everyone is going to die all the time and seemingly massively overtreat/overtest most patients. It really turned me off and decided not to go to medical school. Maybe it’s their version of upselling.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    I think it's more likely that it's their version of "if I do this and something goes wrong, I'm less likely to lose the lawsuit."
  - bongoman37 3y ago
    I think it is also about seeing the most difficult cases and having them stick in your memory as a med student. I have friends who practice medicine and they show the same behavior even when there is no monetary incentive at any stage for them. They do this even for their own parents and kids.
- danesparza 3y ago
  Be safe. The United States has the highest maternal mortality rate among developed countries. In 2020, there were 23.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. That number includes both hospital and home births. However studies have found home births with certified professional midwives in the US to have very low rates of maternal and infant mortality, comparable to hospital births for low-risk women.
  - dev_tty01 3y ago
    I don't disagree that there are real problems, but these statistics don't really help much. The home birth group is less likely to include high risk births. Many issues are detected during prenatal care and most of those parents will choose a birthing environment better equipped to deal with crises. As far as high US mortality rate, I wonder if this is more of a reflection of general poor health issues from terrible dietary choices rather than the birth process itself.
    - purpleflame1257 3y ago
      Demographics plays a significant role here. In the U.S. women in the middle 3 quintiles of income have fewer children than the top, and far fewer than the bottom. In countries with more generous maternity policies I believe the trend is not as strong.
  - Chris2048 3y ago
    > studies have found home births with certified professional midwives in the US to have very low rates of maternal and infant mortality Does this factor in that high-risk births might be more likely had in the hospital?
  - u801e 3y ago
    > In 2020, there were 23.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. How does that compare to 1920, or even 1820 when home births were the norm?
    - soudiere 3y ago
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  Does anyone know how the phrase "denying science" crept into people’s vocabulary? I find it incredibly creepy since it sort of treats science as a religion, and usually people who say it seem to know basically nothing about actual science. If I think back before about 10 years ago I don’t think I had ever heard it before. In the past, non-technically minded people didn’t really cite “science” as a concrete reason to do anything, and the people who did generally at least kind of knew what they were talking about.
  - woleium 3y ago
    "science denier" sounds like it's language the flat earth folk et al use, coined (I'd imagine) to speak to them in their language, or by themselves as a positive trait?
    - permo-w 3y ago
      my eccentric high school English teacher once pointed out that the original connotation of "x denier" is of the holocaust
      - woleium 3y ago
        Good point!
  - bondarchuk 3y ago
    From my viewpoint (in europe though) I only started hearing/seeing it during coronavirus.
    - DennisP 3y ago
      In the US we got a head start on it with climate.
      - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
        [dead]
- peteradio 3y ago
  > "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe This effects blood flow no? This happened to our first born and his heartrate began to drop by half and we began to prepare for an emergency c-section.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  I find it crazy that you’re bothered by scans having a margin of error measured in single digit days.
  - croo 3y ago
    It's not a problem if the error margin means nothing - the baby comes out between 38-42 week is all good. It is a problem because if you run out of the pre determined terminus based on erroneous scans you will get c-section because protocol. Of course this is a personal anecdote and may not apply to your country.
  - soudiere 3y ago
    Same, I linked him a paper on the error margin of these scans in another comment. The poor assumption here is the error margin at 18-19 weeks is the same at 36 weeks. Might be worth reviewing the ACOG's recommendations on post-term deliveries https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2021/07/medically-indicated-late-preterm-and-early-term-deliveries https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
    - drekipus 3y ago
      The problem isn't the single digit days. We were totally fine with this and we just put it down to "the baby will come out when they're ready" I'm saying that you need to tell that to the doctors, who raised all manner of forcible induction on the mother at N+1 days. Why is a week within margin, but the day after due date isn't?
      - soudiere 3y ago
        I said read the guidelines. Casually scanning the literature on pubmed shows babies that come out after IDK 39 weeks have sometimes not great outcomes, and it gets worse as time goes on. You say "the baby will come out when they're ready", but what would you reply to "what if the baby wants to come out stillborn?" When do you want forcible induction to be advised by the clinician? 39 weeks + 2-3 days for you to feel comfortable about the decision? Maybe a week if you're seeing a psychologist or like astrology?
- joelgreenhall 3y ago
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- fdsalkjvadlkj 3y ago
  I'd caution you to take this attitude in this case. Modern medicine isn't run by boogiemen out to get you. Nuchal cords really do increase risk, and you're making a cavalier and poorly informed statement to justify your reasoning with "the baby isn't even using its throat to breath yet." [1] Forceps are generally reserved for emergencies, and could save your baby's life. Birth goes ok, 90%+ of the time. I don't think it's right saying doctor and nurses are overreacting, their job and where they make a difference is in the 10%. And there's no knowing where you'll fall until after. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719938/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719938/
- soudiere 3y ago
  Imagine working with this guy on a software system. Says no to established best practices across the board "no" to version control, CI/CD, vulnerability scans, patching and all the interventions. Gets one project off the ground by "following their gut", and it wasn't a disaster, concludes this is the way to go. > Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe yet. It still has the cord for everything they need. This is just wildly ignorant, they're concerned about occlusion of bloodflow through the cord and/or the carotid artery. > The morphology scans can't seem to decide if we're at 18 weeks or 19 weeks. Due dates my ass. What are you upset about? The error margin being well within the stated limitations in current research? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7844476/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7844476/
  - BigJono 3y ago
    I don't disagree but "established best practices" have an enormous range from no brainers to obvious cargo cult bullshit. For every dev rightly suggesting people use CI/CD I've met 10 that twitch at the slightest suggestion that maybe we don't need whatever half baked library their favourite medium blogger or tweeter is raving about this week. I think it's stupid to disregard a doctor's advice, but as someone without a medical degree you really have no good way of knowing whether you're getting the healthcare version of "use version control" or "I just used Svelte for 5 minutes and it's the best thing ever!!!!!!!". You just have to roll with it like you'd roll with a shit dev over someone who's never written a line of code in their life.
  - btilly 3y ago
    You are acting like an ignorant first rate asshole. As example of your ignorance is your lecture about the dangers of an umbilical cord wrapped around the neck. That is, in fact, very common and it is incredibly rare for it to lead to complications. https://unmhealth.org/stories/2022/12/nuchal-cord-managing-delivery-umbilical-cord-wraps-around-babys-neck.html https://unmhealth.org/stories/2022/12/nuchal-cord-managing-d... Which leads to your willful ignorance of the fact that the guy was exposed to a lot of research about problems in medicalized interventions. "This guy"'s critical experience was almost certainly running across that research. And not on his personal anecdote. I've seen enough of that research myself to know that the interventions that he's questioning really aren't equivalent to any of the software best practices in your straw man comparison. As for an example of your being an asshole, take your question about what he's upset about with due dates. You are right that it is a medical fact that the date chosen is imprecise. He knew that as well. But you are wrong to have not noticed his story about having his wife be asked about abuse because she wasn't getting induced 2 days after her due date. That behavior on the part of the doctor is an excellent reason to get unhappy. Now why do doctors behave that way? According to research I saw close to 20 years ago, because they really want to control when the baby comes. It is more convenient for them to have a baby come during the work week rather than interrupting their Sunday golf game, and so they pressure mothers to make that happen. They do this both by recommending medically unnecessary Caesarians, and by inducing when there is no medical need. Which is an example of the arrogance of the medical industry that illustrates why people get upset about this.
- Spooky23 3y ago
  It’s a tough process in the US because healthcare is a mess in the US and obstetrics is dominated by defensive medicine, especially if there’s a significant number of Medicaid patients. Most of the hysteria is because they get a lot of women who show at at 42 weeks, no prenatal care, gestational diabetes and no support system. Even worse, if mom is hooked to opioids, and that baby costs $2m to deliver. America in this area is basically the privileged who get world class care and the proles who get whatever.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >We also had to forcibly tell doctors "no" to forceps, pumps, drugs, and all the interventions. They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. Guy who has delivered zero babies telling the team who has delivered many babies what to do. >Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" Lol.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
1letterunixname 3y ago
This belongs in the Chindogu museum along with vibrating belt "exercisers" and sweat booth "weight loss machines".
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Doctors' discomfort is also why they are so eager to slice women open like a fish, because baby needs to come on their schedule or they'll be late for tee time.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  [[citation needed]] To my knowledge Caesarean Section is a last resort.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    It is not. My mother was forced out of a hospital once for not giving a Caesarean section. (The baby was fine throughout.) And I had a college roommate (male, no children) who espoused the idea that making women give birth without the benefit of a Caesarean section was barbaric.
  - jermaustin1 3y ago
    Not who you are replying to. Anecdata, but my sister-in-law had 3 children, her first was at the same hospital I was born (in the Texas Medical Center), and he was a standard birth, the last 3 were at our small region hospital. With her second child after only an hour of labor they told her they HAD to do a C-Section, and to top it off, they only gave her 2 nights to recover from what is major surgery (first night being the night she gave birth). The reason for the remaining C-Section was that she "needed" a C-Section before. I'm not saying that its so the doctor can go play golf or something personally repugnant like that, but that they are short staffed doctors, and a C-Section typically has no complications and they know how long it takes to get a baby out when they cut you open versus you taking up a bed that could be turned over to the next C-Section. There is an incentive to flip beds as often as possible.
    - anotherhue 3y ago
      Same here. They just got sick of waiting. Turns out private equity has optimised the birth process.
    - 3y ago
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. It's just the most comfortable position for the _doctor_. Almost. The reason the hospital makes you do that is not that the position is comfortable for the doctor. It's that the doctor wants to follow a set of guidelines for what should be happening when according to how dilated the mother's cervix is, all of those guidelines use measurements from a supine mother, and changing the mother's position changes how dilated the cervix is. But you're correct that the supine position is bad and we should stop doing it. (Source: my mother is an OB/GYN, and is particularly interested in natural birth and similar hippie considerations. In this case, my sympathies are with the hippie considerations.)
DoingIsLearning 3y ago
> modern day labour leaves deep mental scars in most women while being one of the most important thing in their life. > Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. It's just the most comfortable position for the _doctor_. You are looking at it from the eyes of the Health System that you know. I lived in countries were elective C-sections are a thing and the father is just a guy we need to notify at the end of the ordeal. But I also lived in countries where birth (inside the hospital) in a birthing pool with the music and light and drugs of your choice is a thing, with the father right next to the mother. _Culturally_ different health systems can be less or more 'medicalized'.
- rjmunro 3y ago
  Here in Oxford, UK, both the above are available in the same hospital - we could choose what we wanted. Is that not normal elsewhere?
  - twodave 3y ago
    This is available in the US, but you make the choice based on the facility, typically. You can have the more medicalized experience at a hospital, or you can do home birth and hire a doula to assist, or you can go to a birthing center, which is sort of an in-between but more intimate atmosphere than a hospital. Usually the birthing center will be close enough to a real hospital to intervene if something goes wrong during the birth.
    - omniglottal 3y ago
      Which of these options does medical insurance cover?
      - koenigdavidmj 3y ago
        My wife has had kids in all these settings, except the home birth was through the same provider as the birthing center. All of them were covered by insurance, except the birthing center is out of network. There’s an in-network one the next city over. (This is a perfectly ordinary HDHP/HSA plan through a large company that you’ve heard of.)
pfdietz 3y ago
This reminded me of the Zero Punctuation review of Diablo 4. Talking about the big villain demon lady: "Yes, she was summoned in a nightmarish ritual of blood and tearing flesh, but aren't we all?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjovy5kHo7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjovy5kHo7g
2Gkashmiri 3y ago
in my city, C-section is becoming a big problem because for-profit hospitals earn 50x more for a C-section so they create artificial scarcity with regards to keeping women in hospital beds and await an empty surgery room. Just the moment there is a vacancy, the doctor comes up to the family and creates an urgency "oh the baby is in danger, we need to do surgery now, like now" and even "we need to do this surgery now or else you are responsible". As if there are malpractice laws here. I have read in books about women doing normal day's work or chilling at home or driving and they going in to labor and then the rush to the hospital. here the a pregnant women assumes the physical properties of glass. They are treated with super gentle care as in no work, no nothing, no exercise, 3-4 days before the "expected date" they are put in hospital beds...... https://www.thequint.com/gender/kashmir-what-is-behind-the-alarming-rise-of-c-section-deliveries https://www.thequint.com/gender/kashmir-what-is-behind-the-a... https://www.greaterkashmir.com/todays-paper/op-ed/why-are-c-section-deliveries-on-rise-in-kashmir https://www.greaterkashmir.com/todays-paper/op-ed/why-are-c-... https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/12/14/i-feel-like-crying-c-section-making-life-painful-for-kashmiri-mothers/ https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/12/14/i-feel-like-crying-c-...
cientifico 3y ago
Which country do you live in? We had ours two years ago, and my girlfriend was able to choose. We choose to have it in the hospital as if there is something bad happening, the reaction time is much faster than at home (or other clinics/birth houses). The hospital we choose, has Swimmingpool/Bads but we just ended in a room full of devices to even have the baby in a situp position. After delivery we needed to share the room though. Even that was a nice experience (we were lucky with the other family). In third world countries they do what you say, and the mortality rate is higher.
anotherhue 3y ago
We found the excessive amount of poorly designed sensors and monitors also forced her to be on her back. And significantly limited movement
lotsofpulp 3y ago
>Giving birth is similar to the act of vomiting in the sense that you don't have to do anything, it happens to you when the circumstances call for it. Is it? I imagine the mortality/morbidity rate for women before modern medical interventions during childbirth was much higher. My wife had to have her amniotic sac manually broken by the doctor after 12 hours of labor to resume her dilation.
- croo 3y ago
  Yep, women body is able to give birth. I agree, mortality was most likely higher because when complications happen, modern intervention is much better, cleaner, we know about bacteria and other stuff exists and stuff like that.. but that's only like 10% of the cases(anecdote). About your wife: if you take a woman in labour from home to an unknown place where strangers stare at her vagina and put stuff in guess what happens? Labour stops. Now you need artificial stuff to make it happen regardless - drugs, breaking sac, more drugs, suction cup, whatnot... My problem is that we butcher the 90% of cases where there is no need for any intervention to the process.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    >I agree, mortality was most likely higher because when complications happen, modern intervention is much better, cleaner, we know about bacteria and other stuff exists and stuff like that.. but that's only like 10% of the cases(anecdote). Data would be nicer than anecdote. But even at 10%, if you are a woman, at 10% probability of needing experienced professionals with medical training and equipment, are you taking a chance at home or at the hospital? More common than mortality is morbidity, and evolution does not quite care about that as long a woman survives well enough to procreate again. But women themselves most certainly care about hemorrhoids, tears, pain, infections, etc. Back to the point though, if the implication of comparing it to vomiting is to say that the mechanism is "simple" enough so as to be reliable enough to not need intervention, I think most women would disagree and prefer having intervention available if necessary. Perhaps many interventions are unhelpful, or the tradeoffs not worth it, but many are helpful, and the medical field does seem to eventually abandon the bad ideas once shown unhelpful.
Cort3z 3y ago
It’s a patent from 1963. It expired in the 80s apparently. I guess it didn’t do too well, or even perhaps wasn’t made. Either way, a patent can be made by anyone. Don’t see this as a serious modern attempt at solving child birth. (Edit: auto correct)
jncfhnb 3y ago
What are the ideal positions? Back seems ideal at a naive glance
- croo 3y ago
  I guess it's different for everyone but by anecdote on all four or squatting, preferably in bath.
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    For hours?
amelius 3y ago
> Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. Well, the more G-forces, the more lying down becomes like standing ...
eutropia 3y ago
Wife and I had our first at a hospital with a trained Nurse-Practitioner Midwife group. We only had to see the OB on call once, and otherwise got to let baby’s and mom’s timetable and needs lead the way, with minimal medical intervention. She was induced because there was a small chance of a kidney issue with baby (a common result on ultrasounds) and we were a few days past due date. Ultimately, labor lasted 30+ hours and she needed to get an epidural so she could get some sleep through the night to make sure she had enough strength - but she had a vaginal birth and got to do skin-to-skin, and baby only had to leave her side for a hearing check on the following day. I guess I share all of that to say that a balance can be found. This place was very respectful of our wishes and the NPMW group was incredibly well trained - and we had the peace of mind knowing if anything went south, we were seconds from pediatric surgery, etc… But to everyone saying “JUST TRUST THE DOCTORS BRO” - use some critical thinking. The medical profession can be dogmatic, arrogant, and hasty. It took a nurse to point out that MDs coming straight from necropsy should wash their hands before delivering a baby to avoid killing mother and child from infection. Doctors are not infallible machines of perfect medical skill, and we know that every medical intervention comes with risk; but humans have been giving birth for eons. Obviously medicine has improved that process in many ways, but medicine is best applied only when needed, so always ask questions and think for yourself.

by croo 3y ago

drekipus 3y ago

Thanks for sharing this. It's so crucial to know that we have actually lost this information and we're getting worse. >Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. My wife and I were shocked when we had our first. We were recommended a "natural birth" course that taught us this, and everyone gave us crap about being "woo-woo" and "denying science". Everyone. We also had to forcibly tell doctors "no" to forceps, pumps, drugs, and all the interventions. They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. The birth of our first was not too difficult (her words), she did it her way, listened to his she was feeling, followed her gut, and I just had to run interference. Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe yet. It still has the cord for everything they need. Now we're having a second and we're gonna go home birth. The morphology scans can't seem to decide if we're at 18 weeks or 19 weeks. Due dates my ass.

awestroke 3y ago
cord wrapped around the neck can potentially block blood flow to the brain, causing brain damage
zulban 3y ago
> home birth Isn't the rate of complications higher at home than in a hospital? Statistics is your friend here. Not sure I would want my wife to experience pre-hospital rates of complications. Maybe tough to study tho, as I'm sure women who have had smoother pregnancies (or a good first like your wife) are the ones more likely to home birth.
- drekipus 3y ago
  If you don't count "complications caused by intervention" and things like that, then no it isn't. We've decided that it will be safer and more comfortable for us to do it at home with professional help. Thankfully the public hospital here had a home birthing unit, which was only started about 3 years ago.
  - anotherhue 3y ago
    I was amazed at how many complications were caused by their scheduling decisions.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      There's a maternity hospital near me that we learned (through experience) has a simple method for simplifying scheduling: approximately everyone gets booked for an oxitocin-induced birth.
- soudiere 3y ago
  Rate of complications will be the same, outcomes from those complications won't be the same. Accident rates on the highway might be say, equal among people who do/don't wear seatbelts, but outcomes are not. Look at common complications, like postpartum hemmorrhage (usually > 500 ml blood loss). "estimated 76.7m delivery hospitalizations, 2.3 million (3.0%) were complicated by postpartum hemorrhage. From 2000 to 2019, the rate of postpartum hemorrhage increased from 2.7% to 4.3% ... proportion of deliveries to individuals with at least one postpartum hemorrhage risk factor increased from 18.6% to 26.9% ." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36701615/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36701615/ Bottom line with a home birth, everyones training is around when things go smooth. Medical center is where people have thousands of hours of training on how to save your life.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. There's no relationship between those two things. The "do you feel safe at home" questions are required by law; I get them whenever I visit a hospital, including when I go by myself with a question about toenail fungus.
candiddevmike 3y ago
By the looks of it you are denying science... Hopefully you live close enough to a hospital. Pregnancy complications can happen suddenly and require immediate medical assistance.
- luc4sdreyer 3y ago
  DIY health is all fun and games until something goes wrong, and then suddenly the experts are important again. For some reason the experts apparently don't really understand the "simple" things that can be attempted at home.
- lionkor 3y ago
  > denying science science isnt a religion, you cant deny it or follow it, there is a rigorous process and sometimes the results are wrong, misleading, or lead to the wrong decisions. Do not pretend there's an absolute in science, especially medicine, where one can say "this is the only good way" and know it to be true.
  - BurningFrog 3y ago
    "Denying science" usually means denying scientifically proven facts.
    - javier123454321 3y ago
      https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2022/04/10-strange-medical-practices-from-history/ https://blogs.loc.gov/headlinesandheroes/2022/04/10-strange-... You seem to be denying the scientifically proven facts that science gets things wrong... constantly... to the detriments of people suffering the catastrophic effects of those errors.
      - soudiere 3y ago
        Humor me, what did science actually get wrong in this article? The milk transfusions were shitty solution for lack of blood during a cholera epidemic, but the articles claims are false "In the late 19th century, milk was believed to be the perfect substitute for blood" Soothing syrup did it's job (pain), we now shy from it because of perception of risks, but no one's ever run clinical trials on small amounts of alcohol + opioids on childrens gums showing any adverse outcomes. Chloroform is an effective treatment for asthma, and the best we had before the discovery of beta-2 receptor agonists. See this paper for details on the physiology in mice. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5702405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5702405/ Cocaine (stimulant) is also likely a somewhat effective treatment for allergies. Take a look at this clinical trial which showed antihistamine + ritalin being a more effective treatment. https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(04)00017-X/fulltext https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(04)00017-X/ful... Malaria for treatment of syphilis also makes sense, it was incurable at the time, and the other options were mercury based, ineffective and had horrific side effects. Malaria was better than mercury. Tobacco enemas can be thought of as a large nicotine delivery mechanism. Newspaper clip says it's helpful with meningitis, inflammation of the brain, nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, crosses the blood brain barrier. Maybe it did something, who knows.
lovasoa 3y ago
> [...] although planned home birth is associated with fewer maternal interventions than planned hospital birth, it also is associated with a more than twofold increased risk of perinatal death (1–2 in 1,000) and a threefold increased risk of neonatal seizures or serious neurologic dysfunction (0.4–0.6 in 1,000). https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/04/planned-home-birth https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
- secstate 3y ago
  I mean, they did say "everyone" so I suppose the science drop was not unexpected :)
forgetfreeman 3y ago
The term "run interference" is so much more accurate than I think folks who've never done this realize. My wife submitted a birth plan that explicitly stated no drugs except in the case of emergency. After the fourth time one of the floor nurses asked my wife if she was ready for her epidural I ended up gently insisting she not step foot in our room again. On three occasions I physically barred entry to the room to a lab tech that thought 3am was an appropriate time to do routine blood draws. Twice I caught and stopped a group of 10 (!!) med students about to enter the room for no medically obvious purpose. To the extent that there was any peace during or after my wife giving birth it was because I was belligerenly guarding the door.
- ralphc 3y ago
  I applaud all that with the possible exception of the routine blood draws. Not for childbirth but both my wife and I have been in the hospital and appreciated the monitoring. Things can go south quickly on many medical issues, wouldn't a timely blood test catch things early?
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    It’s difficult unless you know how the hospital works. If you’re recovering on the standard medical floor, they follow some idiotic process ordered by a hospitalist whom you’ll never see. Basically you’re there because some rule says so. If you’re on an OB floor, ICU, PACU, or dedicated unit, you’d better know why she’s there and they are doing those blood draws as you’re putting mom at risk for a variety of problems. If all is well, she’s going home in a day or two, and being an obstructionist is just delaying that process and an actual good nights sleep.
  - forgetfreeman 3y ago
    I'd say it's situational. In this particular instance my wife showed no signs of any complications before, during, or after the birth and the labwork was as much to do with billing our insurance as anything else. They still got to do all of the labwork they wanted, just a few hours later at a more reasonable time of day.
- 3y ago
mahopa 3y ago
Asking about abuse is a standard question in the US now during hospital interactions not just births and not just natural births.
VeninVidiaVicii 3y ago
Thanks for sharing. This lines up so well with my experience as a translator in the ER — doctors are constantly catastrophizing and make it seem like everyone is going to die all the time and seemingly massively overtreat/overtest most patients. It really turned me off and decided not to go to medical school. Maybe it’s their version of upselling.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  I think it's more likely that it's their version of "if I do this and something goes wrong, I'm less likely to lose the lawsuit."
- bongoman37 3y ago
  I think it is also about seeing the most difficult cases and having them stick in your memory as a med student. I have friends who practice medicine and they show the same behavior even when there is no monetary incentive at any stage for them. They do this even for their own parents and kids.
danesparza 3y ago
Be safe. The United States has the highest maternal mortality rate among developed countries. In 2020, there were 23.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. That number includes both hospital and home births. However studies have found home births with certified professional midwives in the US to have very low rates of maternal and infant mortality, comparable to hospital births for low-risk women.
- dev_tty01 3y ago
  I don't disagree that there are real problems, but these statistics don't really help much. The home birth group is less likely to include high risk births. Many issues are detected during prenatal care and most of those parents will choose a birthing environment better equipped to deal with crises. As far as high US mortality rate, I wonder if this is more of a reflection of general poor health issues from terrible dietary choices rather than the birth process itself.
  - purpleflame1257 3y ago
    Demographics plays a significant role here. In the U.S. women in the middle 3 quintiles of income have fewer children than the top, and far fewer than the bottom. In countries with more generous maternity policies I believe the trend is not as strong.
- Chris2048 3y ago
  > studies have found home births with certified professional midwives in the US to have very low rates of maternal and infant mortality Does this factor in that high-risk births might be more likely had in the hospital?
- u801e 3y ago
  > In 2020, there were 23.8 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. How does that compare to 1920, or even 1820 when home births were the norm?
  - soudiere 3y ago
pfannkuchen 3y ago
Does anyone know how the phrase "denying science" crept into people’s vocabulary? I find it incredibly creepy since it sort of treats science as a religion, and usually people who say it seem to know basically nothing about actual science. If I think back before about 10 years ago I don’t think I had ever heard it before. In the past, non-technically minded people didn’t really cite “science” as a concrete reason to do anything, and the people who did generally at least kind of knew what they were talking about.
- woleium 3y ago
  "science denier" sounds like it's language the flat earth folk et al use, coined (I'd imagine) to speak to them in their language, or by themselves as a positive trait?
  - permo-w 3y ago
    my eccentric high school English teacher once pointed out that the original connotation of "x denier" is of the holocaust
    - woleium 3y ago
      Good point!
- bondarchuk 3y ago
  From my viewpoint (in europe though) I only started hearing/seeing it during coronavirus.
  - DennisP 3y ago
    In the US we got a head start on it with climate.
    - Slava_Propanei 3y ago
      [dead]
peteradio 3y ago
> "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe This effects blood flow no? This happened to our first born and his heartrate began to drop by half and we began to prepare for an emergency c-section.
jncfhnb 3y ago
I find it crazy that you’re bothered by scans having a margin of error measured in single digit days.
- croo 3y ago
  It's not a problem if the error margin means nothing - the baby comes out between 38-42 week is all good. It is a problem because if you run out of the pre determined terminus based on erroneous scans you will get c-section because protocol. Of course this is a personal anecdote and may not apply to your country.
- soudiere 3y ago
  Same, I linked him a paper on the error margin of these scans in another comment. The poor assumption here is the error margin at 18-19 weeks is the same at 36 weeks. Might be worth reviewing the ACOG's recommendations on post-term deliveries https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2021/07/medically-indicated-late-preterm-and-early-term-deliveries https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-op...
  - drekipus 3y ago
    The problem isn't the single digit days. We were totally fine with this and we just put it down to "the baby will come out when they're ready" I'm saying that you need to tell that to the doctors, who raised all manner of forcible induction on the mother at N+1 days. Why is a week within margin, but the day after due date isn't?
    - soudiere 3y ago
      I said read the guidelines. Casually scanning the literature on pubmed shows babies that come out after IDK 39 weeks have sometimes not great outcomes, and it gets worse as time goes on. You say "the baby will come out when they're ready", but what would you reply to "what if the baby wants to come out stillborn?" When do you want forcible induction to be advised by the clinician? 39 weeks + 2-3 days for you to feel comfortable about the decision? Maybe a week if you're seeing a psychologist or like astrology?
joelgreenhall 3y ago
[dead]
fdsalkjvadlkj 3y ago
I'd caution you to take this attitude in this case. Modern medicine isn't run by boogiemen out to get you. Nuchal cords really do increase risk, and you're making a cavalier and poorly informed statement to justify your reasoning with "the baby isn't even using its throat to breath yet." [1] Forceps are generally reserved for emergencies, and could save your baby's life. Birth goes ok, 90%+ of the time. I don't think it's right saying doctor and nurses are overreacting, their job and where they make a difference is in the 10%. And there's no knowing where you'll fall until after. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719938/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5719938/
soudiere 3y ago
Imagine working with this guy on a software system. Says no to established best practices across the board "no" to version control, CI/CD, vulnerability scans, patching and all the interventions. Gets one project off the ground by "following their gut", and it wasn't a disaster, concludes this is the way to go. > Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" when the baby isn't even using its throat to breathe yet. It still has the cord for everything they need. This is just wildly ignorant, they're concerned about occlusion of bloodflow through the cord and/or the carotid artery. > The morphology scans can't seem to decide if we're at 18 weeks or 19 weeks. Due dates my ass. What are you upset about? The error margin being well within the stated limitations in current research? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7844476/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7844476/
- BigJono 3y ago
  I don't disagree but "established best practices" have an enormous range from no brainers to obvious cargo cult bullshit. For every dev rightly suggesting people use CI/CD I've met 10 that twitch at the slightest suggestion that maybe we don't need whatever half baked library their favourite medium blogger or tweeter is raving about this week. I think it's stupid to disregard a doctor's advice, but as someone without a medical degree you really have no good way of knowing whether you're getting the healthcare version of "use version control" or "I just used Svelte for 5 minutes and it's the best thing ever!!!!!!!". You just have to roll with it like you'd roll with a shit dev over someone who's never written a line of code in their life.
- btilly 3y ago
  You are acting like an ignorant first rate asshole. As example of your ignorance is your lecture about the dangers of an umbilical cord wrapped around the neck. That is, in fact, very common and it is incredibly rare for it to lead to complications. https://unmhealth.org/stories/2022/12/nuchal-cord-managing-delivery-umbilical-cord-wraps-around-babys-neck.html https://unmhealth.org/stories/2022/12/nuchal-cord-managing-d... Which leads to your willful ignorance of the fact that the guy was exposed to a lot of research about problems in medicalized interventions. "This guy"'s critical experience was almost certainly running across that research. And not on his personal anecdote. I've seen enough of that research myself to know that the interventions that he's questioning really aren't equivalent to any of the software best practices in your straw man comparison. As for an example of your being an asshole, take your question about what he's upset about with due dates. You are right that it is a medical fact that the date chosen is imprecise. He knew that as well. But you are wrong to have not noticed his story about having his wife be asked about abuse because she wasn't getting induced 2 days after her due date. That behavior on the part of the doctor is an excellent reason to get unhappy. Now why do doctors behave that way? According to research I saw close to 20 years ago, because they really want to control when the baby comes. It is more convenient for them to have a baby come during the work week rather than interrupting their Sunday golf game, and so they pressure mothers to make that happen. They do this both by recommending medically unnecessary Caesarians, and by inducing when there is no medical need. Which is an example of the arrogance of the medical industry that illustrates why people get upset about this.
Spooky23 3y ago
It’s a tough process in the US because healthcare is a mess in the US and obstetrics is dominated by defensive medicine, especially if there’s a significant number of Medicaid patients. Most of the hysteria is because they get a lot of women who show at at 42 weeks, no prenatal care, gestational diabetes and no support system. Even worse, if mom is hooked to opioids, and that baby costs $2m to deliver. America in this area is basically the privileged who get world class care and the proles who get whatever.
itsoktocry 3y ago
>We also had to forcibly tell doctors "no" to forceps, pumps, drugs, and all the interventions. They made such a big deal about being two days past the due date, that they pulled her aside and asked if I was abusive. Guy who has delivered zero babies telling the team who has delivered many babies what to do. >Doctors and nurses make a big deal about things like "the cord is wrapped around the neck" Lol.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

1letterunixname 3y ago

This belongs in the Chindogu museum along with vibrating belt "exercisers" and sweat booth "weight loss machines".

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Doctors' discomfort is also why they are so eager to slice women open like a fish, because baby needs to come on their schedule or they'll be late for tee time.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
[[citation needed]] To my knowledge Caesarean Section is a last resort.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  It is not. My mother was forced out of a hospital once for not giving a Caesarean section. (The baby was fine throughout.) And I had a college roommate (male, no children) who espoused the idea that making women give birth without the benefit of a Caesarean section was barbaric.
- jermaustin1 3y ago
  Not who you are replying to. Anecdata, but my sister-in-law had 3 children, her first was at the same hospital I was born (in the Texas Medical Center), and he was a standard birth, the last 3 were at our small region hospital. With her second child after only an hour of labor they told her they HAD to do a C-Section, and to top it off, they only gave her 2 nights to recover from what is major surgery (first night being the night she gave birth). The reason for the remaining C-Section was that she "needed" a C-Section before. I'm not saying that its so the doctor can go play golf or something personally repugnant like that, but that they are short staffed doctors, and a C-Section typically has no complications and they know how long it takes to get a baby out when they cut you open versus you taking up a bed that could be turned over to the next C-Section. There is an incentive to flip beds as often as possible.
  - anotherhue 3y ago
    Same here. They just got sick of waiting. Turns out private equity has optimised the birth process.
  - 3y ago

thaumasiotes 3y ago

> Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. It's just the most comfortable position for the _doctor_. Almost. The reason the hospital makes you do that is not that the position is comfortable for the doctor. It's that the doctor wants to follow a set of guidelines for what should be happening when according to how dilated the mother's cervix is, all of those guidelines use measurements from a supine mother, and changing the mother's position changes how dilated the cervix is. But you're correct that the supine position is bad and we should stop doing it. (Source: my mother is an OB/GYN, and is particularly interested in natural birth and similar hippie considerations. In this case, my sympathies are with the hippie considerations.)

DoingIsLearning 3y ago

> modern day labour leaves deep mental scars in most women while being one of the most important thing in their life. > Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. It's just the most comfortable position for the _doctor_. You are looking at it from the eyes of the Health System that you know. I lived in countries were elective C-sections are a thing and the father is just a guy we need to notify at the end of the ordeal. But I also lived in countries where birth (inside the hospital) in a birthing pool with the music and light and drugs of your choice is a thing, with the father right next to the mother. _Culturally_ different health systems can be less or more 'medicalized'.

rjmunro 3y ago
Here in Oxford, UK, both the above are available in the same hospital - we could choose what we wanted. Is that not normal elsewhere?
- twodave 3y ago
  This is available in the US, but you make the choice based on the facility, typically. You can have the more medicalized experience at a hospital, or you can do home birth and hire a doula to assist, or you can go to a birthing center, which is sort of an in-between but more intimate atmosphere than a hospital. Usually the birthing center will be close enough to a real hospital to intervene if something goes wrong during the birth.
  - omniglottal 3y ago
    Which of these options does medical insurance cover?
    - koenigdavidmj 3y ago
      My wife has had kids in all these settings, except the home birth was through the same provider as the birthing center. All of them were covered by insurance, except the birthing center is out of network. There’s an in-network one the next city over. (This is a perfectly ordinary HDHP/HSA plan through a large company that you’ve heard of.)

pfdietz 3y ago

This reminded me of the Zero Punctuation review of Diablo 4. Talking about the big villain demon lady: "Yes, she was summoned in a nightmarish ritual of blood and tearing flesh, but aren't we all?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjovy5kHo7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjovy5kHo7g

2Gkashmiri 3y ago

in my city, C-section is becoming a big problem because for-profit hospitals earn 50x more for a C-section so they create artificial scarcity with regards to keeping women in hospital beds and await an empty surgery room. Just the moment there is a vacancy, the doctor comes up to the family and creates an urgency "oh the baby is in danger, we need to do surgery now, like now" and even "we need to do this surgery now or else you are responsible". As if there are malpractice laws here. I have read in books about women doing normal day's work or chilling at home or driving and they going in to labor and then the rush to the hospital. here the a pregnant women assumes the physical properties of glass. They are treated with super gentle care as in no work, no nothing, no exercise, 3-4 days before the "expected date" they are put in hospital beds...... https://www.thequint.com/gender/kashmir-what-is-behind-the-alarming-rise-of-c-section-deliveries https://www.thequint.com/gender/kashmir-what-is-behind-the-a... https://www.greaterkashmir.com/todays-paper/op-ed/why-are-c-section-deliveries-on-rise-in-kashmir https://www.greaterkashmir.com/todays-paper/op-ed/why-are-c-... https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/12/14/i-feel-like-crying-c-section-making-life-painful-for-kashmiri-mothers/ https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/12/14/i-feel-like-crying-c-...

cientifico 3y ago

Which country do you live in? We had ours two years ago, and my girlfriend was able to choose. We choose to have it in the hospital as if there is something bad happening, the reaction time is much faster than at home (or other clinics/birth houses). The hospital we choose, has Swimmingpool/Bads but we just ended in a room full of devices to even have the baby in a situp position. After delivery we needed to share the room though. Even that was a nice experience (we were lucky with the other family). In third world countries they do what you say, and the mortality rate is higher.

anotherhue 3y ago

We found the excessive amount of poorly designed sensors and monitors also forced her to be on her back. And significantly limited movement

lotsofpulp 3y ago

>Giving birth is similar to the act of vomiting in the sense that you don't have to do anything, it happens to you when the circumstances call for it. Is it? I imagine the mortality/morbidity rate for women before modern medical interventions during childbirth was much higher. My wife had to have her amniotic sac manually broken by the doctor after 12 hours of labor to resume her dilation.

croo 3y ago
Yep, women body is able to give birth. I agree, mortality was most likely higher because when complications happen, modern intervention is much better, cleaner, we know about bacteria and other stuff exists and stuff like that.. but that's only like 10% of the cases(anecdote). About your wife: if you take a woman in labour from home to an unknown place where strangers stare at her vagina and put stuff in guess what happens? Labour stops. Now you need artificial stuff to make it happen regardless - drugs, breaking sac, more drugs, suction cup, whatnot... My problem is that we butcher the 90% of cases where there is no need for any intervention to the process.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  >I agree, mortality was most likely higher because when complications happen, modern intervention is much better, cleaner, we know about bacteria and other stuff exists and stuff like that.. but that's only like 10% of the cases(anecdote). Data would be nicer than anecdote. But even at 10%, if you are a woman, at 10% probability of needing experienced professionals with medical training and equipment, are you taking a chance at home or at the hospital? More common than mortality is morbidity, and evolution does not quite care about that as long a woman survives well enough to procreate again. But women themselves most certainly care about hemorrhoids, tears, pain, infections, etc. Back to the point though, if the implication of comparing it to vomiting is to say that the mechanism is "simple" enough so as to be reliable enough to not need intervention, I think most women would disagree and prefer having intervention available if necessary. Perhaps many interventions are unhelpful, or the tradeoffs not worth it, but many are helpful, and the medical field does seem to eventually abandon the bad ideas once shown unhelpful.

Cort3z 3y ago

It’s a patent from 1963. It expired in the 80s apparently. I guess it didn’t do too well, or even perhaps wasn’t made. Either way, a patent can be made by anyone. Don’t see this as a serious modern attempt at solving child birth. (Edit: auto correct)

jncfhnb 3y ago

What are the ideal positions? Back seems ideal at a naive glance

croo 3y ago
I guess it's different for everyone but by anecdote on all four or squatting, preferably in bath.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  For hours?

amelius 3y ago

> Do you know what is the most uncomfortable position for labour is? Yeah, layin on your back. Well, the more G-forces, the more lying down becomes like standing ...

eutropia 3y ago

Wife and I had our first at a hospital with a trained Nurse-Practitioner Midwife group. We only had to see the OB on call once, and otherwise got to let baby’s and mom’s timetable and needs lead the way, with minimal medical intervention. She was induced because there was a small chance of a kidney issue with baby (a common result on ultrasounds) and we were a few days past due date. Ultimately, labor lasted 30+ hours and she needed to get an epidural so she could get some sleep through the night to make sure she had enough strength - but she had a vaginal birth and got to do skin-to-skin, and baby only had to leave her side for a hearing check on the following day. I guess I share all of that to say that a balance can be found. This place was very respectful of our wishes and the NPMW group was incredibly well trained - and we had the peace of mind knowing if anything went south, we were seconds from pediatric surgery, etc… But to everyone saying “JUST TRUST THE DOCTORS BRO” - use some critical thinking. The medical profession can be dogmatic, arrogant, and hasty. It took a nurse to point out that MDs coming straight from necropsy should wash their hands before delivering a baby to avoid killing mother and child from infection. Doctors are not infallible machines of perfect medical skill, and we know that every medical intervention comes with risk; but humans have been giving birth for eons. Obviously medicine has improved that process in many ways, but medicine is best applied only when needed, so always ask questions and think for yourself.