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Lawyer here - you may have plausible arguments about things if you just create software without KYC/AML, and you are outside the US or whatever. If you run an

Lawyer here - you may have plausible arguments about things if you just create software without KYC/AML, and you are outside the US or whatever. If you run an actual service without KYC/AML, uh, yeah, you are probably f'd. If you have specific knowledge that a sanctioned-by-OFAC north korean hacking group is using your service to launder hundreds of millions and you do nothing, you are definitely screwed.

Hizonner 3y ago
Once the contracts were installed on the block chain, nobody was "running" them. They're still out there running right now, and nobody could shut them down if they wanted to. A sufficiently sophisticated user can continue to use Tornado Cash regardless of anything these guys do now or in the future. They might have hosted some user interface code; I don't know. They would have been able to shut down or modify anything they were actually hosting. They could have created alternative contracts, and maybe encouraged somebody to use them. But the basic already-running Tornado Cash contracts are immutable and unstoppable without shutting down all of Ethereum. If anything, something like Monero or ZCash seems to have less cover, because if the developers of those release modified code, and if they succeed in actually getting the bulk of the users to use it, they really can change the way the whole chain works. Although if they tried to remove all anonymity, all that would probably happen would be that somebody would fork the project.
- miracle2k 3y ago
  > They're still out there running right now, and nobody could shut them down if they wanted to. No, but the US could start arresting validators on AML charges, and no doubt, many people here would support this too. > They might have hosted some user interface code; I don't know. That's just a static website though talking only to your wallet app. Somewhat similar to the fight around whether the piratebay is culpable for copyright violations. Many geeks used to support the piratebay. The TC interface is hosted on IPFS. Can IPFS gateway operators not blocking the content be arrested on AML charges?
  - Hizonner 3y ago
    I think some, maybe all, US validators are refusing to include Tornado transactions in their blocks. But unless all validators do it, that just increases the latency. They could go after people for accepting and building on top of other people's blocks with such transactions in them. But I suspect they'd prefer not to have to do that, because the more rarefied the "interactions" they try to enforce against, the more chance they have of courts telling them they're beyond their statutory authority, or conceivably even of authority they actually do have getting repealed. I haven't looked into it in any detail, but I suspect their authority for the Tornado sanctions is actually pretty shaky. They can sanction any entity, but it's not clear, to me at least, that a smart contract is an "entity" in the sense intended by the legislation they're presently relying on for all of this. That means that after all the lawsuits shake out, they may have to ask for new legislation to give them authority. I suspect they'd eventually get that authority, but it's harder to sell it to legislators if anybody can say you've been overreaching. Clarification on edit: Their authority for the sanctions against interacting with the smart contracts looks weak. I don't know about the company or the people; those may be fully within their authority, depending on what they were actually doing. But the smart contracts are the heart of the whole thing. And OFAC seems to be trying its best to muddy the distinction.
- DannyBee 3y ago
  So the charges say they charged money to run relayers. Let's ignore that one. In practice, they are being charged with conspiracy, and the conspiracy is mostly about running the website with the UI, not about the smart contracts (as i read it). they seem to have been careful not to try to charge them for creating some ethereum contracts. Conspiracy does not require that they could have done something later to stop the conspiracy from completing. The crime of conspiracy was complete when they committed an overt act (towards the overall criminal act). Once that was done, you lose. Here, the overt act cited is paying for the website :) In this case, the thing to do is to withdraw before an overt act. If you successfully withdraw, you are no longer chargeable with conspiracy, even if the act later completes. The model instruction for the defense of withdrawal looks like this: "“(1) One of the defendants, (Defendant’s name), has raised the defense that he withdrew from the agreement before any overt act was committed. Withdrawal can be a defense to a conspiracy charge. But Defendant has the burden of proving to you that he did in fact withdraw. (2) To prove this defense, Defendant must prove each and every one of the following things: (A) First, that he completely withdrew from the agreement. A partial or temporary withdrawal is not enough. (B) Second, that he took some affirmative step to renounce or defeat the purpose of the conspiracy. An affirmative step would include an act that is inconsistent with the purpose of the conspiracy and is communicated in a way that is reasonably likely to reach the other members. But some affirmative step is required. Just doing nothing, or just avoiding the other members of the group, would not be enough. (C) Third, that he withdrew before any member of the group committed one of the overt acts described in the indictment. Once an overt act is committed, the crime of conspiracy is complete. And any withdrawal after that point is no defense to the conspiracy charge. (3) If Defendant proves these three factors by a preponderance of the evidence, then you must find him not guilty. Preponderance of the evidence is defined as “more likely than not.” In other words, the defendant must convince you that the three factors are more likely true than not true." So, for example, for the charge related to running the website, "stop paying for website, tell others this is not okay, cut off all support and help you can" seems likely have been enough to withdraw here, even if you couldn't stop others from using it because it's immutable.
  - Hizonner 3y ago
    ... but the question was how they were different from Monero or ZCash. Why couldn't you apply the same argument to those? The developers of both Monero and ZCash definitely know that their systems are in fact used for illegal activity. Monero is probably predominantly used for drug transactions. Surely at least some money laundering too. And absolutely no AML/KYC or other "due diligence". Some of the developers probably even know about specific illegal acts by specific actors. And the illegal activity has been happening throughout the lifetimes of those systems, with plenty of overt acts during any given developer's personal involvement. So if the Tornado Cash people were conspiring with their users to launder money, how are the Monero or ZCash people not conspiring with their users to launder money? What's the required threshold of coordination or participation? In both cases, you're basically looking at somebody sticking some software out there and letting other people use it. It's possible that Tornado had more active participation in specific incidents, but if so, what aspects of that participation matter? If it's a matter of hosting the UI, well, many the Monero and ZCash developers probably also run nodes, so they're actively operating systems that are accepting and relaying obscured transactions, with no attempt to filter out illegal ones. And they can't exactly claim they're ignorant about that. I'm not claiming Tornado Cash is or was not a conspiracy, but if it is, then it seems hard to say that Monero or ZCash isn't. By the way, as far as I know charging money doesn't matter, and I'd put about zero weight on allegations about "running relayers", since there aren't any recognizable "relayers" in the system anyway. The government has a strong interest in ignoring how it actually works, and in muddying any potential distinctions between the automated actions of the smart contracts and the intentional actions of the developers. They've issued actual sanctions forbidding "any interaction with" the smart contracts themselves, and if they let those distinctions become significant, they run the risk of having to explain how the smart contracts are "entities" within their authority to sanction.
- hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
  Funny how the crypto people always think they found a legal loophole. "Akcshually the contracts...." They're like the sovereign citizens of tech.

Hizonner 3y ago

Once the contracts were installed on the block chain, nobody was "running" them. They're still out there running right now, and nobody could shut them down if they wanted to. A sufficiently sophisticated user can continue to use Tornado Cash regardless of anything these guys do now or in the future. They might have hosted some user interface code; I don't know. They would have been able to shut down or modify anything they were actually hosting. They could have created alternative contracts, and maybe encouraged somebody to use them. But the basic already-running Tornado Cash contracts are immutable and unstoppable without shutting down all of Ethereum. If anything, something like Monero or ZCash seems to have less cover, because if the developers of those release modified code, and if they succeed in actually getting the bulk of the users to use it, they really can change the way the whole chain works. Although if they tried to remove all anonymity, all that would probably happen would be that somebody would fork the project.

miracle2k 3y ago
> They're still out there running right now, and nobody could shut them down if they wanted to. No, but the US could start arresting validators on AML charges, and no doubt, many people here would support this too. > They might have hosted some user interface code; I don't know. That's just a static website though talking only to your wallet app. Somewhat similar to the fight around whether the piratebay is culpable for copyright violations. Many geeks used to support the piratebay. The TC interface is hosted on IPFS. Can IPFS gateway operators not blocking the content be arrested on AML charges?
- Hizonner 3y ago
  I think some, maybe all, US validators are refusing to include Tornado transactions in their blocks. But unless all validators do it, that just increases the latency. They could go after people for accepting and building on top of other people's blocks with such transactions in them. But I suspect they'd prefer not to have to do that, because the more rarefied the "interactions" they try to enforce against, the more chance they have of courts telling them they're beyond their statutory authority, or conceivably even of authority they actually do have getting repealed. I haven't looked into it in any detail, but I suspect their authority for the Tornado sanctions is actually pretty shaky. They can sanction any entity, but it's not clear, to me at least, that a smart contract is an "entity" in the sense intended by the legislation they're presently relying on for all of this. That means that after all the lawsuits shake out, they may have to ask for new legislation to give them authority. I suspect they'd eventually get that authority, but it's harder to sell it to legislators if anybody can say you've been overreaching. Clarification on edit: Their authority for the sanctions against interacting with the smart contracts looks weak. I don't know about the company or the people; those may be fully within their authority, depending on what they were actually doing. But the smart contracts are the heart of the whole thing. And OFAC seems to be trying its best to muddy the distinction.
DannyBee 3y ago
So the charges say they charged money to run relayers. Let's ignore that one. In practice, they are being charged with conspiracy, and the conspiracy is mostly about running the website with the UI, not about the smart contracts (as i read it). they seem to have been careful not to try to charge them for creating some ethereum contracts. Conspiracy does not require that they could have done something later to stop the conspiracy from completing. The crime of conspiracy was complete when they committed an overt act (towards the overall criminal act). Once that was done, you lose. Here, the overt act cited is paying for the website :) In this case, the thing to do is to withdraw before an overt act. If you successfully withdraw, you are no longer chargeable with conspiracy, even if the act later completes. The model instruction for the defense of withdrawal looks like this: "“(1) One of the defendants, (Defendant’s name), has raised the defense that he withdrew from the agreement before any overt act was committed. Withdrawal can be a defense to a conspiracy charge. But Defendant has the burden of proving to you that he did in fact withdraw. (2) To prove this defense, Defendant must prove each and every one of the following things: (A) First, that he completely withdrew from the agreement. A partial or temporary withdrawal is not enough. (B) Second, that he took some affirmative step to renounce or defeat the purpose of the conspiracy. An affirmative step would include an act that is inconsistent with the purpose of the conspiracy and is communicated in a way that is reasonably likely to reach the other members. But some affirmative step is required. Just doing nothing, or just avoiding the other members of the group, would not be enough. (C) Third, that he withdrew before any member of the group committed one of the overt acts described in the indictment. Once an overt act is committed, the crime of conspiracy is complete. And any withdrawal after that point is no defense to the conspiracy charge. (3) If Defendant proves these three factors by a preponderance of the evidence, then you must find him not guilty. Preponderance of the evidence is defined as “more likely than not.” In other words, the defendant must convince you that the three factors are more likely true than not true." So, for example, for the charge related to running the website, "stop paying for website, tell others this is not okay, cut off all support and help you can" seems likely have been enough to withdraw here, even if you couldn't stop others from using it because it's immutable.
- Hizonner 3y ago
  ... but the question was how they were different from Monero or ZCash. Why couldn't you apply the same argument to those? The developers of both Monero and ZCash definitely know that their systems are in fact used for illegal activity. Monero is probably predominantly used for drug transactions. Surely at least some money laundering too. And absolutely no AML/KYC or other "due diligence". Some of the developers probably even know about specific illegal acts by specific actors. And the illegal activity has been happening throughout the lifetimes of those systems, with plenty of overt acts during any given developer's personal involvement. So if the Tornado Cash people were conspiring with their users to launder money, how are the Monero or ZCash people not conspiring with their users to launder money? What's the required threshold of coordination or participation? In both cases, you're basically looking at somebody sticking some software out there and letting other people use it. It's possible that Tornado had more active participation in specific incidents, but if so, what aspects of that participation matter? If it's a matter of hosting the UI, well, many the Monero and ZCash developers probably also run nodes, so they're actively operating systems that are accepting and relaying obscured transactions, with no attempt to filter out illegal ones. And they can't exactly claim they're ignorant about that. I'm not claiming Tornado Cash is or was not a conspiracy, but if it is, then it seems hard to say that Monero or ZCash isn't. By the way, as far as I know charging money doesn't matter, and I'd put about zero weight on allegations about "running relayers", since there aren't any recognizable "relayers" in the system anyway. The government has a strong interest in ignoring how it actually works, and in muddying any potential distinctions between the automated actions of the smart contracts and the intentional actions of the developers. They've issued actual sanctions forbidding "any interaction with" the smart contracts themselves, and if they let those distinctions become significant, they run the risk of having to explain how the smart contracts are "entities" within their authority to sanction.
hsjqllzlfkf 3y ago
Funny how the crypto people always think they found a legal loophole. "Akcshually the contracts...." They're like the sovereign citizens of tech.