4 ms·

What I get from this is: make your own rules

yellow_lead 3y ago
Especially in emergencies - information is potentially bad, and going with the crowd can leave you dead. That said, preparation is key.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  I think this is a tragedy of the commons type case. In general and for the society at large, what you want is order. Listen to authorities, do what they say. If everyone is in full panic mode, its very likely even more people die. By following directions and maintaining order, you increase the odds that more people survive. For you personally? Go in full panic mode, do whatever you have to, to live. At the end of the day, no one is getting a ticket for running a police barricade. But some people that listened are literally dead. Basically - I want everyone else to be calm and follow directions, and I want to push my way to the front and save myself.
  - yellow_lead 3y ago
    Some types of situations certainly may be like this, not sure why others disagree.
- seafoam 3y ago
  Yes, reading this article reminded me of Steward Brand, who drives around with earthquake tools in the trunk of his car.
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    What are earthquake tools?
    - jmholla 3y ago
      I got this list from an article written by him[0]: > a logger’s first aid kit, a flashlight, the new Army bayonet (designed mainly as a tool), a folding shovel, and Vibram-soled boots Note, that article is from 1990. It's a recounting of the '89 San Francisco earthquake. [0]: https://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Earthquake_Lessons.html https://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Earthquake_Lessons.html
SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
I find it weird that the title of the article focuses on them so much, but it seems like the barricades there were due to the downed electrical wire or to keep people away from other areas that were on fire. Timed differently driving around the barricade one could have ended up in a worse situation than they already were. Hindsight is of little value to those who were making decisions in the moment, but really, "make your own rules during an emergency" seems like it isn't guaranteed to be effective. You're just as likely to be adding to the problem as anything.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  A worse situation than burning alive in your car?
  - croes 3y ago
    You might die precisely because you dodged the barricade and would otherwise have survived.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    Remember - you don't have much information at that moment. You could have driven right into a fire or into a tangle of live power lines. You could have endangered the lives of the road crew working on the power lines, or could have caused an incident that prevented the road from being opened at all, preventing anyone from escaping that way - you don't know when or if it was going to be reopened. So possibly worse? Absolutely. And keep in mind that the "burning alive in your car" wasn't a guaranteed outcome here - many people survived.
marcosdumay 3y ago
I imagine on most emergencies that fails spectacularly. There has to be some rule for spotting the inefficacy of the responders. But it's quite hard to make something that works. Even "know about the emergency and how things work around it" tends to fail often. Also, the next "obvious" one of "past performance is damn highly correlated with future performance" is so full of problems that it's completely counterproductive.
bilbo0s 3y ago
I know it's a sample size of one, but based on my experience, making your own rules is spectacularly bad advice. Experience: Houston, from Allison to Harvey.
- simlevesque 3y ago
  It depends entirely on what rules you are making. Staying in the path of a disaster is clearly not a good idea. In the end if you value your private property so much that you'd risk your life you'll make bad decisions. I'm dumb but not that dumb.
DennisP 3y ago
This reminds me of a great book: Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why. The author looks at case studies (and some stats iirc) of a bunch of people in life-threatening situations, some who survived and others not. He looks at how they acted, gets into the psychology of why people act that way, and pulls out some lessons. One of them was "think for yourself, don't just follow instructions." One example was 9/11, during which some people in the towers were told to just stay where they were. Some of those who ignored that instruction made it out.

Especially in emergencies - information is potentially bad, and going with the crowd can leave you dead. That said, preparation is key.

brianwawok 3y ago
I think this is a tragedy of the commons type case. In general and for the society at large, what you want is order. Listen to authorities, do what they say. If everyone is in full panic mode, its very likely even more people die. By following directions and maintaining order, you increase the odds that more people survive. For you personally? Go in full panic mode, do whatever you have to, to live. At the end of the day, no one is getting a ticket for running a police barricade. But some people that listened are literally dead. Basically - I want everyone else to be calm and follow directions, and I want to push my way to the front and save myself.
- yellow_lead 3y ago
  Some types of situations certainly may be like this, not sure why others disagree.
seafoam 3y ago
Yes, reading this article reminded me of Steward Brand, who drives around with earthquake tools in the trunk of his car.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  What are earthquake tools?
  - jmholla 3y ago
    I got this list from an article written by him[0]: > a logger’s first aid kit, a flashlight, the new Army bayonet (designed mainly as a tool), a folding shovel, and Vibram-soled boots Note, that article is from 1990. It's a recounting of the '89 San Francisco earthquake. [0]: https://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Earthquake_Lessons.html https://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Earthquake_Lessons.html

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

I find it weird that the title of the article focuses on them so much, but it seems like the barricades there were due to the downed electrical wire or to keep people away from other areas that were on fire. Timed differently driving around the barricade one could have ended up in a worse situation than they already were. Hindsight is of little value to those who were making decisions in the moment, but really, "make your own rules during an emergency" seems like it isn't guaranteed to be effective. You're just as likely to be adding to the problem as anything.

mvdtnz 3y ago
A worse situation than burning alive in your car?
- croes 3y ago
  You might die precisely because you dodged the barricade and would otherwise have survived.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Remember - you don't have much information at that moment. You could have driven right into a fire or into a tangle of live power lines. You could have endangered the lives of the road crew working on the power lines, or could have caused an incident that prevented the road from being opened at all, preventing anyone from escaping that way - you don't know when or if it was going to be reopened. So possibly worse? Absolutely. And keep in mind that the "burning alive in your car" wasn't a guaranteed outcome here - many people survived.

marcosdumay 3y ago

I imagine on most emergencies that fails spectacularly. There has to be some rule for spotting the inefficacy of the responders. But it's quite hard to make something that works. Even "know about the emergency and how things work around it" tends to fail often. Also, the next "obvious" one of "past performance is damn highly correlated with future performance" is so full of problems that it's completely counterproductive.

bilbo0s 3y ago

I know it's a sample size of one, but based on my experience, making your own rules is spectacularly bad advice. Experience: Houston, from Allison to Harvey.

simlevesque 3y ago
It depends entirely on what rules you are making. Staying in the path of a disaster is clearly not a good idea. In the end if you value your private property so much that you'd risk your life you'll make bad decisions. I'm dumb but not that dumb.

DennisP 3y ago

This reminds me of a great book: Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why. The author looks at case studies (and some stats iirc) of a bunch of people in life-threatening situations, some who survived and others not. He looks at how they acted, gets into the psychology of why people act that way, and pulls out some lessons. One of them was "think for yourself, don't just follow instructions." One example was 9/11, during which some people in the towers were told to just stay where they were. Some of those who ignored that instruction made it out.