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Maui residents who disobeyed barricades survived fires
- throw7 3y agoThe AP article quoted: (it has an interactive timeline also) https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-fires-timeline-maui-lahaina-road-block-c8522222f6de587bd14b2da0020c40e9 https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-fires-timeline-maui-lahain...
- tegmark 3y agoand those korean kids on that ship, the only ones who survived were the ones who disobeyed orders. and theres video of the kids staying in place talking about a subway accident where people were told to stay put and the only ones who died were the ones who disobeyed. think for yourself.
- tegmark 3y agowe dont live in a world where public servant are sage old men who are wise and knowledgeable, who have decades of experience in their domain and spend the majority of their time and effort working for the people. we live in a world where government employees are most likely a business or humanity major, are only knowledgeable or dedicated to their domain in a superficial way, and these people have dumb brains that arent detail oriented or creative. the only thing they do well is understand how to make sure they are never culpable for anything that might go wrong and ultimately protect their career above all else. these people are scum. if you are a middle aged, stem educated man then you would be wrong not to do a reality check when some government idiot puts barriers between you and your escape route. the bar is not high, think for yourself. even the scientists employed by the government have a nasty habit of being dishonest.
- conductr 3y agoIt’s my thought with the Uvalde situation. Ultimately, those cops didn’t want to die a heroes death; even with some kids being harmed as they watched. I couldn’t imagine obeying the order to stand down while being equipped with a firearm.
- autoexec 3y agoThese are the kinds of situations that make me glad self driving cars still don't work well enough to replace human drivers. Humans can evaluate the entire situation and decide when to break rules, while self driving cars don't understand anything and can only follow rules according to what little it can detect and process. Humans are a lot more concerned with staying alive than following rules, but rules are all self driving cars know and they don't care at all if you burn to death or not.
- CottonMcKnight 3y agoOh god, I was just reminded of a story that came out of the Station Nightclub fire, claiming a bouncer blocked people from using an exit that was "for the band only". https://www.wcvb.com/article/station-nightclub-fire-20th-anniversary-february-20-2023/42987641 https://www.wcvb.com/article/station-nightclub-fire-20th-ann...
- gamblor956 3y agoThere were no barricades... There were downed power lines in the roads, blocking traffic. Many of these power lines were in the outbound lanes. The AP article cited for the claim that there were barricades shows officers directing evacuees around a downed power line while utility workers try to remove it from the road.
- gorwell 3y ago> More than 100 deaths have been confirmed, and roughly 1,000 people remain unaccounted for. It's been two weeks now. Does this mean that roughly 1,000 people died?
- ralph84 3y agoYes, unfortunately. It’s not like these people were hiking in the wilderness and might be found alive. They’re buried in the ashes of the fire.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Maultasche 3y agoSometimes, it can be a case where someone is still alive, but hasn't yet communicated with the person that reported them missing for whatever reason. After two weeks, however, I imagine that most of the missing will never reappear.
- panarky 3y agoFrequently missing people show up but do not notify authorities that they're okay.
- rootw0rm 3y agoMore than 1,000 people were missing [1] in the Camp fire. 85 people died. [1] https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668552010/more-than-600-people-now-missing-in-californias-deadliest-fire https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668552010/more-than-600-peopl...
- simlevesque 3y agoWhat I get from this is: make your own rules
- yellow_lead 3y agoEspecially in emergencies - information is potentially bad, and going with the crowd can leave you dead. That said, preparation is key.
- brianwawok 3y agoI think this is a tragedy of the commons type case. In general and for the society at large, what you want is order. Listen to authorities, do what they say. If everyone is in full panic mode, its very likely even more people die. By following directions and maintaining order, you increase the odds that more people survive. For you personally? Go in full panic mode, do whatever you have to, to live. At the end of the day, no one is getting a ticket for running a police barricade. But some people that listened are literally dead. Basically - I want everyone else to be calm and follow directions, and I want to push my way to the front and save myself.
- yellow_lead 3y agoSome types of situations certainly may be like this, not sure why others disagree.
- seafoam 3y agoYes, reading this article reminded me of Steward Brand, who drives around with earthquake tools in the trunk of his car.
- bottlepalm 3y agoWow, within an hour that fire moved from the top of the hill to the bottom. Can't imagine. A literal blast furnace with those strong winds.
- throwway120385 3y agoIf it came up over the Lahaina Pali, I believe that. I've hiked it and the grasses are bone dry and the wind is constant and strong.
- pookha 3y agoThat trail is awesome! I can't believe they took wagons up that trail back in the 1800s...If you ever get back their there's a service road that leads up to the top of the mountains and takes you to some lakes. You can see it from the road. Would recommend that hike too.
- pookha 3y agoI was in Laihaina in mid-July. I've been all over the world and that was easily one of the most beautiful places I've experienced. Locals were incredibly friendly (bought a hat at Maui Hat). No hint of snobbery or localism. Very sad. The tour-guide that took us out to a tourist submaraine died in this fire. I saw countless kids with their parents on the beaches (we went to baby beach). I'm just a dumb tourist but I experienced profane sadness over some of the people I'd met that I know got totally wiped out, died or are ruined. Nobody had any time to react because most people were sheltering form the storm winds. The locals should have sounded the sirens to get people out of their houses.
- SoftTalker 3y ago> Hawaiian Electric had no procedure in place for turning off the grid I find this hard to believe. Substations have remote control. Even if they are so old that they do not, send out a lineman crew and open the cutouts. You have to be able to do this to do maintenance and repair, it's not believable that they cannot "turn off" power in an emergency.
- throwway120385 3y agoWhat they probably meant is "nobody gave any consideration to the implications of a red flag warning on the propensity for utility poles to fall and cause catestrophic fires."
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- russdill 3y agoI think they didn't envision turning off the grid, especially if fire risk is high. My understanding is that without power, water pumps used to provide the water needed to fight fires have to rely on generators which have limited run time.
- pvaldes 3y agoFor the experts on electronics here. Lets imagine a theoretical scenery when some undisclosed vulnerability would allow somebody to hack the system, create a voltage spike and emit sparks remotely, triggering multiple fires at a desired place, from the other coin of the planet. Do you think that this could be a realistic danger? (or not because there are systems put in place that avoid it?) If yes, how we could suspect foul game and hunt that person, or how the electric companies could defend its property against that possibility [1]? [1] (I understand that the companies should have removed any flammable materials under the lines first to avoid negligence)
- Pxtl 3y ago> The workers were motioning for everyone to turn back toward Lahaina. They literally sent people to die, under the color of authority as working under county government. Will anybody face accountability? edit: I'm rate-limited but to provide an a historical analog: In 1911 the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed over a hundred young women working in the garment industry. The building's doors were locked by the owners of the factory to reduce theft. The owners were found liable for the deaths of their employees, but the damages were a pittance. I have trouble seeing "deliberately blocking the means of egress with reckless disregard for its need in an emergency evacuation for the sake of your own convenience" as profoundly different here.
- massysett 3y agoAccountability for what - doing their jobs in good faith with the best information they had?
- Pxtl 3y agoThis is not an unforeseeable occurrence. Hawaii is a tiny island state that is often hit by hurricanes, tsunami, and volcanic freaking eruptions. Any organization that is empowered to close roads needs to have good policies to decide what to do in emergency evacuations so they don't accidentally social-murder anyone. Somebody decided that preparing for this fully-predictable event wasn't a priority.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> Any organization that is empowered to close roads needs to have good policies to decide what to do in emergency evacuations so they don't accidentally social-murder anyone So every time the utility needs to do line maintenance, it has to draw up contingency plans for a nuclear strike? The problem wasn't overzealous road closures. It was a general lack of a fire plan.
- AlbertCory 3y agoYes, if "doing their jobs" means disregarding common sense and basic humanity. You don't need a written regulation to justify not doing that. If you're more worried about being dinged on your next performance review than saving people's lives, then yes, you should face accountability.
- LastCovidWave 3y ago[flagged]
- bluenomatterwho 3y agoAt least don't let a good crisis go to waste, right. We might never make it out of covid but we should try to get lockdowns going again in other ways. Something like this is a perfect example. Lock down and stay safe. Shelter in place. Save the planet.
- swayvil 3y agoYet this is a clear demonstration that SOMETIMES the authority is definitely NOT right.
- nomad_monad 3y ago> No, this doesn't apply to every other situation involving officials and emergencies and the public. Who said that? Me? Stop virtue signaling and politicizing disasters, that's how people die. Drawing a line in the sand only urges people to take sides and make dangerous and extreme choices. When bad shit happens, keep calm, use some common sense and think ahead, work as a community, that's all.
- andromeduck 3y agoOfficials who told everyone hand washing was more effective than wearing masks.
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- rcpt 3y agoThe amount of conspiracy talk surrounding this fire is already nuts. This revelation will supercharge that.
- fitblipper 3y agoWhen Tucson experienced a hazardous chemical spill during evening rush hour[0] officials required everyone to shelter in their homes to avoid the poisonous fumes outside. At the same time they closed tons of roads for miles around the area, even the inbound road access to many residential areas. What could people do who needed to get home to their kids? They had to park their car and trek a few miles to their homes. So much for staying inside. I don't know my point really except to bring up another instance where local emergency response did not make sense and it is incredibly frustrating when it causes additional harm. [0]https://www.npr.org/2023/02/15/1157174863/tucson-hazardous-chemical-spill-evacuation-arizona https://www.npr.org/2023/02/15/1157174863/tucson-hazardous-c...
- IG_Semmelweiss 3y ago911: The twin towers also had PA system alerting office workers to stay on their floors. Because that was deemed "safe". And this are buildings that would have gone thru regular fire drills, etc. Those that listened & were above the ~80th floor, did not survive
- rasz 3y agoEven more tragic - Korean disaster mv Sewol where Captain used ship PA to tell school children to stay put, then jumped into safety raft and swam away. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-sinking-of-the-mv-sewol-and-the-confusion-of-disasters https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-sinking-of-the-...
- s1artibartfast 3y agoOr when Uvalde police ordered parents to stand back while their children were slaughtered.
- stuff4ben 3y agoWith the level of incompetence being shown by officials, I think it's not too far fetched to consider jail time for them. They'll plead ignorance of course, but there were warnings and these deaths are on them.
- vkou 3y agoSo, you're going to jail people for following procedures, because the outcome was bad? Are you also going to jail people for not following procedures, if the outcome turned out to be bad?
- stuff4ben 3y agoYou seem to have a problem comprehending what I said. I said "with the level of incompetence being shown by officials". It has nothing about following procedure. It's the ignoring of warning signs and the willful disregard to prepare for windstorms like this. So yes, I want to jail top-level officials who could have done more to prevent this (government as well as those in charge of Maui Electric). Not the low-level workerbee who just setup a barricade.
- sproketboy 3y ago[dead]
- ethanbond 3y agoWhat were the warnings they should've heeded differently?
- xoxxala 3y agoA state official delayed releasing water for firefighting efforts over a water usage dispute: https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/a-state-official-refused-to-release-water-for-west-maui-fires-until-it-was-too-late/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2023/08/a-state-official-refused-t... This water dispute has been going on for a while. From that article: "In 2022, two Maui senators, Gil Keith-Agaran and Lynne DeCoite, introduced a measure to push DLNR to allow fresh water to be used to fight fires and pointed to West Maui as being particularly vulnerable." The measure didn't go anywhere.
- cmcconomy 3y agotragic
- supportengineer 3y agoThe local government failed at every possible level, resulting in so many tragic deaths.
- gorkish 3y agoOne thing that hasn't been much discussed but is very important regarding the Hawaii fires is that 'local government' works very differently in HI than in most states: There are no official city boundaries or city governments, only county governments. In the case of Maui, the local government (mostly in Kahului) administers three populated islands: Maui, Molokai, and Lanai. I won't claim to understand how this impacted their response to the fires; however, at the very least it should be understood that the residents typically lack the layer of 'local government' that most other Americans living in towns or cities have.
- AwaAwa 3y agoA government isn't necessary during the good times, as much as during the bad. And this has only proven that a government like this, is not necessary.
- Simulacra 3y agoI'm curious if this will be investigated as a possible crime. Consider an open fairground area. A fire has broken out. The company who owns the fairgrounds announces for people to stay put or turn around, do not go around the barricades. People obey and die. An argument could me made that the company is negligible, and possibly criminally liable for manslaughter, although that would be a stretch.
- commandlinefan 3y agoWow... I definitely would have obeyed the barricades and trusted the police. I'll definitely think twice in the future.
- LorenPechtel 3y agoYeah, if I'm trying to escape something like a fire and see a barricade I'm going to think the officials that placed it know that taking that route would be jumping from the frying pan to the fire. Obviously they were very wrong in this case--blocking a "bad" option when the alternatives were much worse.
- skidd0 3y agoTragic events like this can be a reminder that the only person responsible for your safety is You. You Cannot rely on "officials" or rules to care more about you than you do. Trust your gut, maintain awareness. Do not be lulled into complacency by safety theatre.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoSee also, physical health, financial planning, life decisions, personal safety, and psychological well-being. Ultimately, the buck stops with the individual, and you can't completely outsource personal responsibility.
- rewmie 3y ago> Trust your gut, maintain awareness. This advice is pretty bad, and reeks of survivorship bias. This "truthiness" approach to safety purposely ignores the countless cases of morons getting themselves killed by intentionally ignoring directions from emergency services.
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoDirections from emergency services are sometimes wrong. Let us admit that they are usually right. But not always. Remember that.
- unshavedyak 3y agoAlso worth remembering that frequently the average person has no idea what to do in emergencies and the gut response is frequently wrong, if not terribly wrong.
- omniglottal 3y agoThe police are average people too.
- bell-cot 3y ago
- gooseyman 3y agoThis was a hard read. What is the best move if stuck in gridlock with fires oncoming?
- baq 3y agoGTFO of the car and run
- spookthesunset 3y agoGet a motorcycle. Motorcycles are the ultimate mad max vehicle.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoNah, the salesman will sense you're in a rush and screw you on the financing.
- phpisthebest 3y agoSurvival is almost always increased by ignoring government officials, I dont know why we have to keep relearning this lesson over and over again but some people still follow government like they have some divine knowledge Government works best which is subservient to the people, the second it becomes something else bad things will happen
- ompogUe 3y agoAlso, there is knowing the limits of the governments capabilities, and accentuating it. The Cajun Navy started out with someone's great aunt rounding up some bass boats in the swamp to send to New Orleans after Katrina. It now has dispatchers on call (which takes pressure off of the 911 system) collecting needs, channeling volunteers where rescues are needed, and piping emergencies to 911. Also, has built expertise around post-disaster rebuilding - CNGF has boots on the ground in Maui.
- LorenPechtel 3y agoNo. Government generally has a much better big picture than you do and thus is more likely to get it right. Where they typically get it wrong is avoiding a known small risk vs a possible bigger risk. However, in this case it seems to be a known small risk vs a certain much bigger risk.
- creer 3y agoThe government's plan is then probably about overall statistics and nothing to do with your personal well being. You better consider it.
- hermitdev 3y agoNo, the local residents and first responders have a much better big picture on local issues, which a wildfire most definitely is. The problem with wildfires is a lot of personnel and management get shipped in from elsewhere, and they often have no clue on local conditions. I have great admiration for the firefighters that work wildfires, but the management is awful. But, I'm probably bitter because the Fed burned my parents' house down due to mismanagement of a wildfire.
- LatteLazy 3y agoIs there any actual evidence for this? The article is all hearsay...
- jtbayly 3y agoQuoting an actual person at the scene is not hearsay, is it?
- LatteLazy 3y agoI don't see a quote from anyone who saw people turn around and die as a result. I see a quote from someone talking about how it would have been bad to make a wrong turn. And another about people stuck in traffic. But those are not the same as what the headline claims. And those are the 2 salient points in an article thick with emotion and implications. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But they present no evidence to support their claims... Given the general anarchy and confusion, I
- karaterobot 3y agoPeople follow directions because they think the people giving them know what's best. Too late, they realize those people are only following directions given to them by someone else, further from the scene, with even less at stake. In a crisis, we need to be able to distinguish between the urge to act, and the urge to panic. It's very difficult. And it's more complicated than that, because sometimes those distant planners are right. But, unavoidably, you're the one responsible for your safety, not the police or the government, or an orange traffic cone, or a barricade.
- rewmie 3y agoI really don't understand what point you tried to make. Claiming "you're the one responsible for your safety" really does not say anything, specially as you do not have the context or situational awareness to know whether staying put or running away will save your life or get you killed. There are plenty of wildfires where individuals "responsible for their own safety" got themselves killed by driving straight into the expected path of the fire, against the express directions of emergency services. Would you call those cases a win in the libertarian books? It's very weird how this belief that your amateur ignorance is far superior to the informed guidance of professional emergency services can get any traction whatsoever.
- omniglottal 3y agoWhat's realy weird is your conversation existing in this context of how the official's blockade would kill those who obeyed it.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y agoBut it's not - the article is not making the claim that only those who drove around the barricade survived. There were other survivors.
- Volundr 3y agoI don't think there is anything weird about it. It's not hard to find anecdotes where not wearing a seatbelt may have saved someone's life, when the drivers side of the car was crushed or punctured, but the driver was thrown to a different location. It doesn't mean in general it's a good idea to not wear your seatbelt, because you can't know in advance that's the kind of crash your going to get into. Similarly here ignoring a barricade in a wildfire is a great way to find yourself driving into the path of the fire, getting yourself killed, and there are plenty examples of people doing just that. The fact that in this case those placing the barriers got it wrong, and ignoring them may have saved lives does not make it a good idea to ignore such warnings in the general case.
- civilitty 3y agoEveryone's focused on the barricades (orange cones from the sound of it) but this caught my eye at the end: > “The gridlock would have left us there when the firestorm came,” Cuevas-Reyes, 38, told the AP. “I would have had to tell my children to jump into the ocean as well and be boiled alive by the flames or we would have just died from smoke inhalation and roasted in the car.” That kind of gridlock is why we have all of those giant stroads everyone loves to complain about every few blocks in California. A few years ago my house was one mile from a wildfire in SoCal and the two lane road was overwhelmed during the evacuation despite only supporting a small exurban population. Now at my new suburban house, the neighboring development recently got halted after only building out 20% of the units because the fire marshal calculated that our surrounding roads wouldn't be able to support the traffic in case of evacuation. The developer is trying to get a new freeway on-ramp approved atm, otherwise they'll have to switch from dense 5-over-1s to single family homes in the rest of the development. This is a reminder for everyone to download and print out the evacuation routes and tape them to the inside of your door! When done correctly, they're carefully designed to allow as many people to get out as fast as possible without causing gridlock while still allowing emergency vehicles in. Unfortunately this is all carried out at the state and local level so it takes a tragedy like Lahaina for people to really start investing in proper (sub)urban and emergency planning.
- Drunk_Engineer 3y agoAll it takes is one fallen power line or tree to turn that stroad into a giant parking lot of death. Cutting back brush and undergrounding power lines is much more cost-effective than building stroads up into the hillsides.
- civilitty 3y agoCutting back brush and putting powerlines underground doesn't help people evacuate during a natural disaster, it just removes two ways a single type of natural disaster can spread. Everyone living in an area needs enough space to evacuate fast enough to get away from natural disasters safely. It doesn't matter if there's a downed power line when no one can get out due to gridlock even in the best case scenario. Everyone's gotta be able to get out fast enough.
- bell-cot 3y agoReaction I - any reason why "we" (HN) are looking at The Hill for coverage on this topic? The Hill basically is a Washington(DC)-centric political news site. Not public safety, nor municipal government, nor wildfire, nor ... Reaction II - when a fast-moving "plus 4 sigma" disaster hits, what's the usual batting average for any local municipal government handling it correctly? I'm betting "d*mned low". This is real-world America - not a "competence porn" movie from Hollywood, nor a "they were morally responsible..." term paper in Philosophy 271. Reality Check - coverage of Maui's last municipal election is here: https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/11/maui-county-richard-bissen-is-winning-big-in-the-race-for-mayor/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/11/maui-county-richard-bissen... Notice that "protecting from climate change" gets all of one in-passing mention in the long article. And nothing closer to the actual disaster is even mentioned. Concept: if an "all the experts are warning us" potential $Disaster is of minimal interest to local voters...then it's hardly surprising if the local government which they elect is neither physically nor mentally capable of coping with $Disaster.
- creer 3y ago"Sensibility to climate change" has nothing to do with competence in "plus 4 sigma" disaster response. For that matter usually neither does the latest election. Disaster preparedness or response is about readiness and means (purchased ahead of time) to do pretty ad-hoc things on very short notice. The slow, long trend isn't the issue. For that matter, once the fire was a large and fast wildfire there quite possibly wasn't much that the entire island could have magically instantly moved to Lahaina to make much difference. The "authorization to release water" is a more interesting one: it was earlier and it was means on hand and it was a few persons' opportunity to be informed and ready to "just do it". And again nothing to do with climate change but instead everything to do with a "now and right here" problem.