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Give it a decade or two of inflation, and that's cash effectively outlawed
by bluescrn 3y ago
Give it a decade or two of inflation, and that's cash effectively outlawed
- raincom 3y agoExactly this. Currency transaction reports are mandatory for any individual transactions > $10,000. This limit $10K was established in 1970 (Bank Secrecy Act). After 50 years, $10,000 of 1970 should have been at least $50K of 2023. Politicians and their crony bureaucrats never want to index these limits with inflation.
- renegade-otter 3y agoCorrection: the index what they need for the right people.
- paxys 3y agoHere's another one – the USD $100 note was introduced in 1914. If currency denominations were to keep up with inflation, the Fed would be printing $3000 bills today.
- version_five 3y agoIn Canada, and I think the US we cannot cross the border with > 10k in cash (edit: more if you declare it as mentioned below). The law has been there for as long as I can remember, be I sure purchasing power of 10k has gone down by at least a factor of 4-10 over the life of the law. All regulation type laws need sunset clauses and all dollar amounts should be inflation linked. The government shouldn't be able to scam more powers like this.
- bawolff 3y agoI was under the impression you were still allowed you just had to fill out a form.
- eru 3y agoI think the law technically states that you have to declare, if you have more cash. It's not directly forbidden, is it?
- xeromal 3y agoI believe above 10k, you're just required to have a source for the 10k. One of my buddies in college brought his entire school tuition in a suitcase over when he started school and it caused a bit of a shit show because he had to go back home and get proof to release the money or something like that. He came from a wealthy family so he had never ran into that before.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoYou can't leave the US carrying more than $5 in nickels and pennies though. https://moneyweek.com/33401/why-its-now-illegal-to-melt-down-us-coins https://moneyweek.com/33401/why-its-now-illegal-to-melt-down... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2007/04/16/E7-7088/prohibition-on-the-exportation-melting-or-treatment-of-5-cent-and-one-cent-coins https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2007/04/16/E7-7088...
- eru 3y agoFrom one of your links: > The United States Mint nevertheless acknowledges the concerns raised by the commenters. Therefore, the exception provided for in the current regulation at section 82.2(a)(2) has been amended to reasonably accommodate these concerns by allowing exportation of 5-cent and one-cent coins having an aggregate face value of up to $25 when it is clear that the purpose for exporting such coins is for legitimate personal numismatic, amusement, or recreational use. It's still a weirdly low limit.
- junofan 3y agoYou can enter the US carrying as much money as you’d like. Can’t speak for Canada.
- acatton 3y agoYes but no. Yes you can enter carrying as much cash, but no you cannot freely enter with over $10k in cash, they need to be reporter to the US Custom and Border Protection before entering the country https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-195?language=en_US https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-195?language=en_US
- ComputerGuru 3y agoDoes “freely enter” have a legal definition? Because you are “free to enter” but need to declare. Just like you are “free to enter” but need to declare if you have an orange you purchased from the States making a return journey back into the States.
- junofan 3y agoAll travelers entering the US must complete the customs declaration forms.
- OJFord 3y ago'complete' doesn't mean 'enter the amount of change in your pocket, and small amount of holiday spending money rolled up in your socks' though. GP's right that you only have to declare certain things, a completed form can be 'nothing to declare', which obviously doesn't mean 'I am entering nude with no belongings'.
- badpun 3y agoI think you can, you just must declare carring the cash if it's more than $10k.
- slashdev 3y agoWhat happens if you declare it? Could they confiscate it without due process, like the police can in many states?
- adventured 3y agoIf you don't declare it, it's guaranteed to be confiscated until you prove a legitimate purpose for the > $10,000. Federal authorities generally have a higher standard of behavior than local or state police, although obviously not in every instance. If you try to cross the border with $500,000 declared, they may have some questions for you.
- ComputerGuru 3y agoI was under the impression if you don’t declare it then there is no legal burden on the government to return it to you, whether you have a reasonable explanation or not. Whereas if you declare it and have a reasonable story/sufficient paperwork they can’t/shouldn’t take it. The point being that in cases where there is no funny business (at least in your opinion), you are strictly better off declaring it than taking your chances on not doing so.
- slashdev 3y agoI feel a lot more comfortable wiring the money or using checks or so on than traveling across a border with that kind of cash.
- mrguyorama 3y ago>Whereas if you declare it and have a reasonable story/sufficient paperwork they can’t/shouldn’t take it. The law in the US is that, the police can take anything they want from you, with zero judicial process needed, slap it into their department's slush fund, buy whatever toys they want, or even as someone posted above, MAKE IT PART OF THEIR YEARLY BUDGET PROCESS TO "EXPECT" MILLIONS IN STOLEN MONEY, and unless you can AFFIRMATIVELY PROVE in a court of law that you obtained the property through zero criminal or near criminal activity, you will never get it back
- ojbyrne 3y agoYou can (of course) cross the border with more than $10k in cash. You have to declare it.
- mywittyname 3y agoWhich can be seized at the border unless you also bring all the necessary paperwork to demonstrate provenance. This is one of those things that sounds simple, but in practice, YMMV.
- MarkSweep 3y agoYou can cross the US border with more than $10k, you just have to report it: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/kbyg/money https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/kbyg/money But I agree with the general principal that this should be inflation indexed.
- fearlessconcu 3y ago> You can cross the US border with more than $10k To be honest, just because you can (legally), doesn't mean you should (do it). Carrying cash in the US is dangerous, and not just because of regular street thugs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... They do not need to prove anything to seize your money. Stealing from people carrying too much cash on them has become a national past time of the police in the US. There are police departments that rely on this to provide them with funding : https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-131/how-crime-pays-the-unconstitutionality-of-modern-civil-asset-forfeiture-as-a-tool-of-criminal-law-enforcement/ https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-131/how-crime-pays-th... > In some Texas counties, forfeitures fund nearly 40% of police budgets.53 The Cook County, Illinois state’s attorney’s office’s 2016 budget anticipated $4.96 million in forfeiture revenues, which it earmarked to pay forty-one full-time employees’ salaries and benefits.54 But forfeiture proceeds are not just used for policing activities; with little accountability, law enforcement officials have also spent them on extravagancies like expensive dinners, parties, and personal expenses.55 > As a result, the decision to pursue a forfeiture is often governed not by justice, but by “department wish lists.”56 Police civil forfeiture trainings include instruction on “maximizing profits, defeating the objections of so-called ‘innocent owners’ . . . , and keeping the proceeds in the hands of law enforcment. It's often talked about here : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36975143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36975143 > And over time, across all 50 states and the federal government, those small sums add up: between 2000 and 2019, according to IJ’s calculations, authorities seized roughly $69 billion from people, most of whom were not even charged with a crime. All it takes is "mmh, this guy has suspicious cash, and we need some funding, let's steal it and say it must have come from drug deals, while not actually charging the owner with any crime".
- intotheabyss 3y agoWhich is funny because I can cross any border with 12 words in my head containing stablecoins.
- benterix 3y agoWhich becomes a problem once you try to cash them in.
- intotheabyss 3y agoWhy would that be a problem? I can just deposit them like I normally do and use VISA or PayPal while international.
- dsr_ 3y agoOr you could just carry the credit card and pay at the end of the month, skipping the business with 'stablecoins'.
- intotheabyss 3y agoThe entire thread is about people not being able to go across borders with x amount of cash without declaring it. I could walk across a border with 100k in stablecoins and never declare it, and then have immediate access to those funds like I would cash. My point is to show the absurdity of these kinds of laws.
- jurynulifcation 3y agoYou could also just carry a bank card across borders and withdraw cash when you land, no need to play around with known scams :)
- intotheabyss 3y agoHow is USDC a scam? Or how about DAI? Also, when I say stablecoins, I am also referring to CBDC's. Anyways, not everyone has a bank account (your viewpoint is very Western centric) and having to withdraw cash in a foreign country is just poor UX in the digital age. And what about refugees fleeing war, like Ukrainians in 2022. There were many many cases where Ukrainians had zero access to their banks while in Poland. Having 12 words, or a set of 5 trusted guardians would be a much better way of securing your wealth than trusting some third party custodian in a city under siege.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- euix 3y agoI have heard of someone (on a talk show) crossing over with a large amount of gold coins. Since the coins (the Gold Loonie) has a nominal face value of something like 200 CAD - he just told the customs that he was bringing over the nominal face value of the coins. This only works with coins not rounds, as rounds are not legal tender and maybe that is why rounds trade at a discount to coins?
- version_five 3y agoI'm virtually certain that is illegal. Usually the rules are about currency or negotiable instruments or whatever and gold would count. Deceiving custom officials is not the same as legally bringing something across the border.
- po8tin 3y ago[flagged]
- post-it 3y agoYeah but capitalism isn't going away, it's just transitioning into full surveillance capitalism.
- po8tin 3y ago[flagged]
- liquidpele 3y agoOh please. This is entirely about making things fair by cutting down on people, cheating the tax code. As much as people hate taxes, they are essential for a society to function… it is essentially your way of buying into the privilege of living in a nice society.
- datadrivenangel 3y agoI agree, though any unlawful business will become much harder with all transactions being visible to law enforcement. Which is fine as long as desirable business remains lawful... Until the government decides they don't like something that we do actually want.
- flagrant_taco 3y agoWe haven't had capitalism for a long time, markets are much to controlled and regulated to fit any reasonable definition.
- jokethrowaway 3y agoCapitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. There is nothing capitalistic in surveillance, there is nothing capitalistic about our regulated market. These are the hallmarks of a socialist regime - and, surprise!, you live in one.
- xxs 3y agoCash payments over (few) thousands are not permitted in the most/many EU member state already. NL are just catching the train. Greece has it as low as 500 Euro.
- benterix 3y ago> Greece has it as low as 500 Euro. Any source for this? [EDIT] As pinted by other commenter: https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cash-payment-limitations.html https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/shopping-internet/cas... They also mention "There is no cash limit for car purchases. However, a change in the law is already being discussed in Greece.".
- xxs 3y ago>Any source for this? Generally, should be trivial search info: e.g. "cash payment amount greece" produces multiple decent results
- euix 3y agoI can't believe in a lot of these countries this is enforced or obeyed to any degree. The closer the empire is to collapse the stupider the laws.
- xxs 3y agoThe laws are there due to anti-money laundering. Since virtually no cash income (in those country) is viable - think salaries, etc., it's not hard to be followed. All retail sales need a valid VAT receipt, all of those receipts have source of the payment as well. Wholesale tends to be never in cash (requires tax administration approval), the laws might differ, of course - however that's a common framework. So it's sort of automatic.
- lettergram 3y agoThen they can monitor all transactions and turn off purchases based on what they want the population to buy. Too much meat for a week, sorry can’t buy more until next week. “But I worked for this money” too bad. It’s effectively “the company store”, except government (“by the people and for the people” - ie your neighbors) dictating what you buy. They just happen to also invest in the companies they direct you to.
- Scarblac 3y agoThey can already do that by rationing meat, like they did in WW2. Require that you have the correct stamps for buying what you want. Or probably introduce some horrible mobile app for it. No need to outlaw cash for that.
- lettergram 3y agoWhile true, they couldn’t block private trading of the meat on the black market. They can with this
- bluescrn 3y agoThe drugs trade and sex trade will figure out alternatives within minutes of cash disappearing, and that'll enable other black markets.
- mrguyorama 3y ago>It’s effectively “the company store”, except government (“by the people and for the people” - ie your neighbors) dictating what you buy. You act like there isn't a MASSIVE distinction between a private business's CEO deciding what his employees should be able to do and an entire society democratically choosing what they want to be allowed.
- willcipriano 3y agoWorks with technology as well, the speed limits in your neighborhood were probably set when cars had drum brakes and poor visibility.
- f1yght 3y agoCars still kill people at high speed, human bodies haven't adapted to get hit by cars better.
- HPsquared 3y agoThe cars have adapted to hit people better though, at least for a given size of car. See Euro NCAP pedestrian test. Cars have softer front ends, and they even pop up on impact to give a softer landing for the pedestrian. Also, automatic emergency braking systems.
- willcipriano 3y agoAutomatic brakes, driver warning systems, better medicine to treat you if you do get hit. Less alcoholism and drunk driving. Radial tires, led headlamps, automatic windshield wipers, daytime running lights, ABS, airbags, hell I think a lot of cars didn't even have seatbelts standard back when some of these were set. Can't even get 5 more mph on the highway.
- reaperducer 3y agoWorks with technology as well, the speed limits in your neighborhood were probably set when cars had drum brakes and poor visibility. Speed limits are far more complicated than that. They're used to reduce noise, create gaps in traffic so people can make left turns, give pedestrians time to cross a street, encourage people to see nearby businesses, and a hundred other reasons. I've read a number of traffic studies in the last few decades. Some of them are fascinating in their technical depth.
- ilyt 3y agoThe reflex of people didn't got faster so while some could probably use some reasonable bump it's not as much as you think.