3 ms·

Just genuinely don't see the point in this debate anymore, like some companies will want you to show up, some will be fine with you working from home. If your

Just genuinely don't see the point in this debate anymore, like some companies will want you to show up, some will be fine with you working from home. If your company is asking you to show up, time to just get another job if that's important to you. Thankfully it's an easy solve because the people who like showing up are tired of video calls anyway.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Workers have leverage and are using it. You don’t have to understand it for workers to work towards having more agency over their working arrangements. The NLRB is likely about to reinstate the Joy Silk doctrine, which will make it even easier to organize. Workers who want flexible work arrangements as a right should lean into that. Public support for unions exceeds 70%, the highest amount in almost 60 years. So strange to see people with the belief system “you just have to do what your employer dictates or go elsewhere.” Perhaps in the “before times”, but with structural demographics and a decent executive branch admin in charge currently, this is simply not the case.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  >> “you just have to do what your employer dictates or go elsewhere.” Isn't that pretty much exactly the case? No one in software is going to go to the trouble of unionizing.
  - carapace 3y ago
    I used to think we didn't need unions and then it came out that dozens of the big tech companies were colluding with each other to limit wages and job mobility. https://web.archive.org/web/20200304045453/https://pando.com/tag/techtopus/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200304045453/https://pando.com... The suits ripped off the engineers to the tune of US$8,000,000,000 (est.)
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Too early to tell if white collar is going to just roll over tbh. I’m more focused on lower income earned organizing at the moment due to the increased quality of life for those folks. It’s fairly straightforward to notify the NLRB you want to hold an election. Just drive forward the effort if you believe in not being held hostage by employers in the aggregate. Remember, those who don’t support unions are a small minority (30% in the US). I see parallels to when HN folks confidently expounded about Dropbox not being a real business as they went on their way to becoming a large enterprise. How? You ignore the talk and naysayers and instead, default to action. Why listen to people who can’t stop you? Your agency and quality of life is more important than their opinion.
  - Nullabillity 3y ago
    Found the VC alt.
  - burkaman 3y ago
    There certainly isn't a mass unionization movement in software yet, but there are some recent cases, it isn't "no one". Most recently Grindr formed a union, and company leadership retaliated by telling all software engineers to move to Chicago within the next couple months or quit. Alphabet and Kickstarter are other notable examples.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  I believe you meant "Joy Silk" doctrine. But in any case, it is laughable. The penalties handed down from the NLRB for union busting are the equivalent of seconds of profit for most of these companies.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Typo corrected, Thank you!
- eru 3y ago
  No unions necessary, just move your job if you don't like it (or don't take one in the first place that you don't like). In a strong labour market that's a sufficient threat. And in a weak labour market, even a union can't rescue you.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
> because the people who like showing up are tired of video calls anyway. Even if you like showing up, you will likely still have video calls. Most large companies have multiple office sites and you still need to collaborate with teams/employees in different locations.
- eru 3y ago
  Yes, but whywhywhywhy is probably happier if there are fewer calls.
dleslie 3y ago
Video calls have existed since before the Internet. They will continue to be a part of office life.
DonsDiscountGas 3y ago
Approximately 100% of my meetings are video calls, even in office. It was that way before the pandemic too. That's what happens when your organization has multiple locations.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  Not necessarily so. I worked at a large organization with offices across the US, as well as in London, Germany, and Canada. Approximately 100% of my meetings were in-person, many with a remote participant or two.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Workers have leverage and are using it. You don’t have to understand it for workers to work towards having more agency over their working arrangements. The NLRB is likely about to reinstate the Joy Silk doctrine, which will make it even easier to organize. Workers who want flexible work arrangements as a right should lean into that. Public support for unions exceeds 70%, the highest amount in almost 60 years. So strange to see people with the belief system “you just have to do what your employer dictates or go elsewhere.” Perhaps in the “before times”, but with structural demographics and a decent executive branch admin in charge currently, this is simply not the case.

osigurdson 3y ago
>> “you just have to do what your employer dictates or go elsewhere.” Isn't that pretty much exactly the case? No one in software is going to go to the trouble of unionizing.
- carapace 3y ago
  I used to think we didn't need unions and then it came out that dozens of the big tech companies were colluding with each other to limit wages and job mobility. https://web.archive.org/web/20200304045453/https://pando.com/tag/techtopus/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200304045453/https://pando.com... The suits ripped off the engineers to the tune of US$8,000,000,000 (est.)
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Too early to tell if white collar is going to just roll over tbh. I’m more focused on lower income earned organizing at the moment due to the increased quality of life for those folks. It’s fairly straightforward to notify the NLRB you want to hold an election. Just drive forward the effort if you believe in not being held hostage by employers in the aggregate. Remember, those who don’t support unions are a small minority (30% in the US). I see parallels to when HN folks confidently expounded about Dropbox not being a real business as they went on their way to becoming a large enterprise. How? You ignore the talk and naysayers and instead, default to action. Why listen to people who can’t stop you? Your agency and quality of life is more important than their opinion.
- Nullabillity 3y ago
  Found the VC alt.
- burkaman 3y ago
  There certainly isn't a mass unionization movement in software yet, but there are some recent cases, it isn't "no one". Most recently Grindr formed a union, and company leadership retaliated by telling all software engineers to move to Chicago within the next couple months or quit. Alphabet and Kickstarter are other notable examples.
sidewndr46 3y ago
I believe you meant "Joy Silk" doctrine. But in any case, it is laughable. The penalties handed down from the NLRB for union busting are the equivalent of seconds of profit for most of these companies.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Typo corrected, Thank you!
eru 3y ago
No unions necessary, just move your job if you don't like it (or don't take one in the first place that you don't like). In a strong labour market that's a sufficient threat. And in a weak labour market, even a union can't rescue you.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

> because the people who like showing up are tired of video calls anyway. Even if you like showing up, you will likely still have video calls. Most large companies have multiple office sites and you still need to collaborate with teams/employees in different locations.

eru 3y ago
Yes, but whywhywhywhy is probably happier if there are fewer calls.

dleslie 3y ago

Video calls have existed since before the Internet. They will continue to be a part of office life.

DonsDiscountGas 3y ago

Approximately 100% of my meetings are video calls, even in office. It was that way before the pandemic too. That's what happens when your organization has multiple locations.

Paul-Craft 3y ago
Not necessarily so. I worked at a large organization with offices across the US, as well as in London, Germany, and Canada. Approximately 100% of my meetings were in-person, many with a remote participant or two.