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“It’s so expensive, nobody wants to be there” Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” > Most Canadians I know have multi generational wealth s

by dangus 3y ago

“It’s so expensive, nobody wants to be there” Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” > Most Canadians I know have multi generational wealth so they are going to be fine Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Canadian cities rank highly for livability, including expensive ones Toronto and Vancouver. No US cities were on the list that I found. Canada ranks higher than the US on the human development index. Canada has better healthcare than the US (#5 in the world according to US News and World Report, ahead of Switzerland). I straight up don’t believe you that there aren’t decent jobs in those cities. They’re like the NYC and LA of Canada. My hot take is that living in a small rented apartment isn’t some kind of catastrophe. For one thing, North American housing is already considered large by the standards of many countries. More importantly, the size of your dwelling is only one aspect of quality of life, and it’s a factor that’s less important than most people give it credit for. Are Dutch people unhappy because their apartments are small? People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. Just as a cherry picked example, I’d rather live in a tiny apartment in Vancouver than live in a big house in places like New Orleans, where I have to worry about higher crime and gun deaths, worse education, worse and more expensive healthcare, worse city services and infrastructure, weather and climate flooding my house away, and worse job opportunities. Obviously, Canada needs better housing and immigration policy, but I’d call those pretty minor and resolvable problems for a country that is doing so well.

BobbyJo 3y ago
> Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” That makes perfect sense to me? I can easily imagine a city where only 1% of people drive because that's all the roads can handle before being slower than walking. > Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Wealth doesn't make things expensive. Supply/Demand imbalances and/or costs make things expensive. In this case, intergenerational wealth is consuming more than it produces, creating greater burden on the rest of the economy to make up the difference. Same with many Western countries. That's why debt in the west just keeps going up. > People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. That argument would carry a lot more weight if a 100k salary could afford even a studio condo in these cities.
- dangus 3y ago
  A 100k salary can afford a studio in Toronto. I found 199 listings within the boundaries of Tornto on Zillow under 2000 Canadian dollars per month, which is well under the rule of thumb for rent to income ratio. I found 1 and 2 bedroom listings along with studios. This doesn't include the rest of Greater Toronto, just the boundaries of the city.
JimtheCoder 3y ago
"Obviously, Canada needs better housing and immigration policy, but I’d call those pretty minor and resolvable problems for a country that is doing so well." And your solutions are...?
- VancouverMan 3y ago
  Those two problems are directly linked, and can be solved together to a great extent. The first step is to stop pretty much all immigration into Canada for the time being. This puts a halt to the unsupportable increases in demand for housing and other resources. The second step is to have all of the "temporary foreign workers", the foreign "students", and the "refugees" promptly return home. This frees up some of the existing supply of such resources. Some people will claim that doing such things would be economically-disruptive. It will be, and that's necessary at this point. That leads to the third step: remove the various government-imposed restrictions and controls on rentals, wages, and so forth. After the severe economic distortions that have been introduced by awful government policies over the past several decades, the economy will need to readjust to a natural balance again. There may be some short-term pain, but it would put Canada into a far healthier position economically and socially over the long run.
  - JimtheCoder 3y ago
    This sounds like a horrible idea... Kick out the foreigners is not something I would expect to hear on HN.
    - morkalork 3y ago
      Between backlash to the Century Initiative and the looming climate refugee crisis, I'm not surprised. Canada is set to take a hard right swing towards populism and its gonna be wild and ugly.
      - ChumpGPT 3y ago
        That is the danger. Remember when 300 Sri Lankan's showed up on the West Coast? People were demanding they be sent back out to sea and some were calling on sinking the vessel. What happens when 30k show up everyday fleeing climate change, hunger, poverty and war crashing ships on Canadian shores? It is the worst scenario but a possible one.
ChumpGPT 3y ago
I cherry picked nothing. You didn't address anything I said. All you did was make excuses for the poor state many young people are forced to live in and added a dose of "it's still better than the USA". You're fed a constant stream of negativity about the US. America is plenty safe, just ask all the expats that live there. I'm happy that you are content and only aspire to have a small rented apartment and make just enough to survive. Would a family of 4 be able to live in your apartment? Would any of them be sleeping on a pull out couch?The way it sounds you have no family and therefore your situation is fine. Many immigrants have children and many young people would like families one day, if they can afford them. CA, AZ, TX, NY, and everything in between are wonderful places to live. It's why so many young Canadians in Technology/STEM have left Canada with no intention of returning. I welcome them all, they are smart, intelligent and hard working people who deserve more than Canada can offer them. Disclaimer: 30 year expat.
- dangus 3y ago
  I didn't say you cherry picked anything.
itsoktocry 3y ago
>according to US News and World Report Is this any more than an advertising vehicle? Are the rankings useful? >Canada has better healthcare than the US This is astonishing to me. Our healthcare system is overwhelmed. It's nearly impossible to get a doctor anywhere in Canada. I can't move my elderly parents this way for that reason. Rural emergency rooms are almost always closed. I know, because I live in a rural area; we no longer have ambulance or emergency room services. >Canadian cities rank highly for livability, including expensive ones Toronto and Vancouver. No US cities were on the list that I found. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't that make the list seem like nonsense, then? What makes Toronto better than, say, Boston?
- dangus 3y ago
  All the complaints you have about your healthcare system exist in the USA and other developed countries' healthcare systems as well. The difference is that your neighbors down south pay far more and have worse outcomes. Focus on statistical outcomes, not hyperbolic qualitative measures. For example, life expectancy in Canada is one of the top in the world, well above the USA. That is a quantitative number that is partially influenced by the quality and availability of Canadian healthcare (among other factors). In the USA, a city-operated ambulance will bill you over $3,000 for a trip less than a mile. What makes Toronto better than Boston? Well, for starters, Boston is significantly more expensive than Toronto. Not really the best place to start making cost of living/housing comparisons.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Healthcare beyond the basics has very little impact on life expectancy. The differences between developed countries mostly come down to diet and lifestyle. Americans on average are more obese, more sedentary, and more alcoholic than Canadians.
    - dangus 3y ago
      You know what else greatly impacts life expectancy? Infant mortality rates, which are almost entirely up to the healthcare system. How do the 8% of Americans who have no health insurance or any kind handle child birth? I legitimately don’t know. If people in all those expensive Canadian cities are less sedentary, obese, and alcoholic it sounds like they have a better overall life.
HDMI_Cable 3y ago
Sorry, but I'm not sure this is entirely accurate, as a Canadian. > Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Most Canadians are not wealthy; the median salary, adjusted for taxes and transfers (so including healthcare spending and social welfare) is lower than almost any US state. There are very many Canadians, who live in places like Trois-Rivieres, Kelowna, or Kingston, that are very poor and are almost destitute. There are also very many people who can barely afford rent—average rent in Toronto is about ~2K CAD per month. That is almost the median salary for Canada as a whole. > Canada has better healthcare than the US (#5 in the world according to US News and World Report, ahead of Switzerland). I agree, but its getting worse. Doctors (thanks Ford, Legault, and Smith) are underfunded and leaving, a good portion of Canadian cannot find a primary care physician, and haven't been to the doctor in months. > I straight up don’t believe you that there aren’t decent jobs in those cities. They’re like the NYC and LA of Canada. There are decent jobs, but open to those who have university degrees due to the rampant credential inflation in Canada. If 60% of Canadians have tertiary education, what good jobs are available to the 40% who don't, due to family circumstance, money, or time? What jobs are available to the 500,000 immigrants per year? > People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. People also want to spend less than $2K a month for a 1 bedroom apartment in a suburb. Canada's problem isn't that there aren't enough McMansions going around, but that there aren't enough *houses* going around. Again, the average Canadian pays something like 40% of our income in rent and/or mortgage, with little option to downsize to pay less. dangus 1 hour ago | parent | context | flag | on: Families earning $100k in Toronto eligible for Hab... “It’s so expensive, nobody wants to be there” Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” > Most Canadians I know have multi generational wealth so they are going to be fine Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Canadian cities rank highly for livability, including expensive ones Toronto and Vancouver. No US cities were on the list that I found. Canada ranks higher than the US on the human development index. Canada has better healthcare than the US (#5 in the world according to US News and World Report, ahead of Switzerland). I straight up don’t believe you that there aren’t decent jobs in those cities. They’re like the NYC and LA of Canada. My hot take is that living in a small rented apartment isn’t some kind of catastrophe. For one thing, North American housing is already considered large by the standards of many countries. More importantly, the size of your dwelling is only one aspect of quality of life, and it’s a factor that’s less important than most people give it credit for. Are Dutch people unhappy because their apartments are small? People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. Just as a cherry picked example, I’d rather live in a tiny apartment in Vancouver than live in a big house in places like New Orleans, where I have to worry about higher crime and gun deaths, worse education, worse and more expensive healthcare, worse city services and infrastructure, weather and climate flooding my house away, and worse job opportunities. > Obviously, Canada needs better housing and immigration policy, but I’d call those pretty minor and resolvable problems for a country that is doing so well. I'm sorry, but this is really out of touch. Canada needs better housing policy, but its not a minor and resolvable problem. It's something we've known about since ~2000, but haven't fixed yet due to entrenched interests. Many Canadians—especially those with high-paying, senior dev roles as you would find on HN—are doing well, but there is a significant underclass of people—including those who came here for a better life—who are struggling. Please do not diminish their struggles.

by dangus 3y ago

BobbyJo 3y ago

> Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” That makes perfect sense to me? I can easily imagine a city where only 1% of people drive because that's all the roads can handle before being slower than walking. > Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Wealth doesn't make things expensive. Supply/Demand imbalances and/or costs make things expensive. In this case, intergenerational wealth is consuming more than it produces, creating greater burden on the rest of the economy to make up the difference. Same with many Western countries. That's why debt in the west just keeps going up. > People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. That argument would carry a lot more weight if a 100k salary could afford even a studio condo in these cities.

dangus 3y ago
A 100k salary can afford a studio in Toronto. I found 199 listings within the boundaries of Tornto on Zillow under 2000 Canadian dollars per month, which is well under the rule of thumb for rent to income ratio. I found 1 and 2 bedroom listings along with studios. This doesn't include the rest of Greater Toronto, just the boundaries of the city.

JimtheCoder 3y ago

"Obviously, Canada needs better housing and immigration policy, but I’d call those pretty minor and resolvable problems for a country that is doing so well." And your solutions are...?

VancouverMan 3y ago
Those two problems are directly linked, and can be solved together to a great extent. The first step is to stop pretty much all immigration into Canada for the time being. This puts a halt to the unsupportable increases in demand for housing and other resources. The second step is to have all of the "temporary foreign workers", the foreign "students", and the "refugees" promptly return home. This frees up some of the existing supply of such resources. Some people will claim that doing such things would be economically-disruptive. It will be, and that's necessary at this point. That leads to the third step: remove the various government-imposed restrictions and controls on rentals, wages, and so forth. After the severe economic distortions that have been introduced by awful government policies over the past several decades, the economy will need to readjust to a natural balance again. There may be some short-term pain, but it would put Canada into a far healthier position economically and socially over the long run.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  This sounds like a horrible idea... Kick out the foreigners is not something I would expect to hear on HN.
  - morkalork 3y ago
    Between backlash to the Century Initiative and the looming climate refugee crisis, I'm not surprised. Canada is set to take a hard right swing towards populism and its gonna be wild and ugly.
    - ChumpGPT 3y ago
      That is the danger. Remember when 300 Sri Lankan's showed up on the West Coast? People were demanding they be sent back out to sea and some were calling on sinking the vessel. What happens when 30k show up everyday fleeing climate change, hunger, poverty and war crashing ships on Canadian shores? It is the worst scenario but a possible one.

ChumpGPT 3y ago

I cherry picked nothing. You didn't address anything I said. All you did was make excuses for the poor state many young people are forced to live in and added a dose of "it's still better than the USA". You're fed a constant stream of negativity about the US. America is plenty safe, just ask all the expats that live there. I'm happy that you are content and only aspire to have a small rented apartment and make just enough to survive. Would a family of 4 be able to live in your apartment? Would any of them be sleeping on a pull out couch?The way it sounds you have no family and therefore your situation is fine. Many immigrants have children and many young people would like families one day, if they can afford them. CA, AZ, TX, NY, and everything in between are wonderful places to live. It's why so many young Canadians in Technology/STEM have left Canada with no intention of returning. I welcome them all, they are smart, intelligent and hard working people who deserve more than Canada can offer them. Disclaimer: 30 year expat.

dangus 3y ago
I didn't say you cherry picked anything.

itsoktocry 3y ago

>according to US News and World Report Is this any more than an advertising vehicle? Are the rankings useful? >Canada has better healthcare than the US This is astonishing to me. Our healthcare system is overwhelmed. It's nearly impossible to get a doctor anywhere in Canada. I can't move my elderly parents this way for that reason. Rural emergency rooms are almost always closed. I know, because I live in a rural area; we no longer have ambulance or emergency room services. >Canadian cities rank highly for livability, including expensive ones Toronto and Vancouver. No US cities were on the list that I found. Maybe it's just me, but doesn't that make the list seem like nonsense, then? What makes Toronto better than, say, Boston?

dangus 3y ago
All the complaints you have about your healthcare system exist in the USA and other developed countries' healthcare systems as well. The difference is that your neighbors down south pay far more and have worse outcomes. Focus on statistical outcomes, not hyperbolic qualitative measures. For example, life expectancy in Canada is one of the top in the world, well above the USA. That is a quantitative number that is partially influenced by the quality and availability of Canadian healthcare (among other factors). In the USA, a city-operated ambulance will bill you over $3,000 for a trip less than a mile. What makes Toronto better than Boston? Well, for starters, Boston is significantly more expensive than Toronto. Not really the best place to start making cost of living/housing comparisons.
- nradov 3y ago
  Healthcare beyond the basics has very little impact on life expectancy. The differences between developed countries mostly come down to diet and lifestyle. Americans on average are more obese, more sedentary, and more alcoholic than Canadians.
  - dangus 3y ago
    You know what else greatly impacts life expectancy? Infant mortality rates, which are almost entirely up to the healthcare system. How do the 8% of Americans who have no health insurance or any kind handle child birth? I legitimately don’t know. If people in all those expensive Canadian cities are less sedentary, obese, and alcoholic it sounds like they have a better overall life.

HDMI_Cable 3y ago

Sorry, but I'm not sure this is entirely accurate, as a Canadian. > Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Most Canadians are not wealthy; the median salary, adjusted for taxes and transfers (so including healthcare spending and social welfare) is lower than almost any US state. There are very many Canadians, who live in places like Trois-Rivieres, Kelowna, or Kingston, that are very poor and are almost destitute. There are also very many people who can barely afford rent—average rent in Toronto is about ~2K CAD per month. That is almost the median salary for Canada as a whole. > Canada has better healthcare than the US (#5 in the world according to US News and World Report, ahead of Switzerland). I agree, but its getting worse. Doctors (thanks Ford, Legault, and Smith) are underfunded and leaving, a good portion of Canadian cannot find a primary care physician, and haven't been to the doctor in months. > I straight up don’t believe you that there aren’t decent jobs in those cities. They’re like the NYC and LA of Canada. There are decent jobs, but open to those who have university degrees due to the rampant credential inflation in Canada. If 60% of Canadians have tertiary education, what good jobs are available to the 40% who don't, due to family circumstance, money, or time? What jobs are available to the 500,000 immigrants per year? > People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. People also want to spend less than $2K a month for a 1 bedroom apartment in a suburb. Canada's problem isn't that there aren't enough McMansions going around, but that there aren't enough *houses* going around. Again, the average Canadian pays something like 40% of our income in rent and/or mortgage, with little option to downsize to pay less. dangus 1 hour ago | parent | context | flag | on: Families earning $100k in Toronto eligible for Hab... “It’s so expensive, nobody wants to be there” Kind of like “nobody drives, there’s too much traffic.” > Most Canadians I know have multi generational wealth so they are going to be fine Translation: Canada is wealthy including most Canadians I know. That’s why things are expensive. Canadian cities rank highly for livability, including expensive ones Toronto and Vancouver. No US cities were on the list that I found. Canada ranks higher than the US on the human development index. Canada has better healthcare than the US (#5 in the world according to US News and World Report, ahead of Switzerland). I straight up don’t believe you that there aren’t decent jobs in those cities. They’re like the NYC and LA of Canada. My hot take is that living in a small rented apartment isn’t some kind of catastrophe. For one thing, North American housing is already considered large by the standards of many countries. More importantly, the size of your dwelling is only one aspect of quality of life, and it’s a factor that’s less important than most people give it credit for. Are Dutch people unhappy because their apartments are small? People want big McMansions to store their consumerist junk because of our HGTV culture but you can live a good life in much less. Your kids can share a bedroom, they’ll even likely be happy with it. Just as a cherry picked example, I’d rather live in a tiny apartment in Vancouver than live in a big house in places like New Orleans, where I have to worry about higher crime and gun deaths, worse education, worse and more expensive healthcare, worse city services and infrastructure, weather and climate flooding my house away, and worse job opportunities. > Obviously, Canada needs better housing and immigration policy, but I’d call those pretty minor and resolvable problems for a country that is doing so well. I'm sorry, but this is really out of touch. Canada needs better housing policy, but its not a minor and resolvable problem. It's something we've known about since ~2000, but haven't fixed yet due to entrenched interests. Many Canadians—especially those with high-paying, senior dev roles as you would find on HN—are doing well, but there is a significant underclass of people—including those who came here for a better life—who are struggling. Please do not diminish their struggles.