5 ms·

Not if it’s a lot more expensive.

by bertil 3y ago

fodkodrasz 3y ago
You can run ICE cars on LPG (propane + butane, would probably work on pure propane as well), with minor (<1000$) modification in the fuel injection system and fitting a proper tank. This could make millions of older cars cleaner, also in the developing world. LPG is already cleaner, would benefit the developing world, and ICE engines can be produced without needing exotic materials, can be recycled 100% by smelting, are a proven, well known, durable technology, unlike lithium batteries (which are also proven, but recycling and exotic materials are problematic), and are and will be a popular technology in the developing world for a long time. Also it would allow for cheaper and cleaner cars in the developed world, where not everybody can afford the electric dream many here are living. It would also be somewhat suitable for long haul and heavy machinery, but most likely in a hybrid drivertrain setup. Also it would solve the big issue of the German home heating and industry: how to stove away the sun and wind from the summer to the winter, when in the windless dark days nowadays coal is burnt, as battery of hydro storage cannot be scaled beyond a few days capacity at extremes. There is already built, or cheap technology to gas powered solutions, no need to transition to new technology hastily. This would give runway to the green transition, as it could be net zero carbon footprint solution with less disturbance to the existing solutions.
- coderenegade 3y ago
  This. There's no way the global car fleet is switching over to electric any time soon. Globally there are around 1.2 billion cars, with 65 million or so sold each year, which puts us at 15-20 years for the fleet to be replaced if every single car sold from today were electric. Like it or not, internal combustion cars have many advantages, a big one being that they can run on different fuels. Converting to green LPG or (my pick) methanol will have to happen if we're serious about reducing transport emissions, because it's the only immediate non-cost-prohibitive option.
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  What about cooling? As engines get smaller they quite often will dump in extra fuel under load to ensure the cylinder doesn't melt. E85 does that even better, as the cost of being less dense. But it cools so much better you can run higher boost. What about LPG? And if we want LPG to be something we still have to deal with legislation, like in many countries you can't park in an underground garage with LPG.
  - ed_balls 3y ago
    > will dump in extra fuel under load to ensure the cylinder doesn't melt They dump extra fuel to prevent knock. It's hard to melt cylinders. > can't park in an underground garage with LPG And yet people park. I haven't heard about an accident in the last 5 years. Maybe it could be managed by an extra detector? LPG engines could be excellent generators (back ups or range extenders for cars and trucks). The emit less particulate matter and NOx.
  - fodkodrasz 3y ago
    I'm not a mechanical engineer, but for one I have driven my father's LPG-converted car, and the cylinder didn't melt so far, so I think this is already more-or-less under control. Many car vendors in the EU (especially south and east) offered LPG-petrol bi-fuel powered cars out of the box. (I know of Dacia and Fiat for sure, and according to my brother LPG converted hybrid Priuses are popular in Poland for insanely cheap operations by cab drivers for example). For engines getting smaller: the LPG operation of petrol engines provides lower power output (and lower torque), so an uptick in LPG powered (dual fuel?) cars would probably mandate slightly different engines sensible (bigger ones), the market would surely adapt to it. E85 would also be fine if it wouldn't be manufactured from intensively farmed monocultural agricultural products, which make it totally non-sustainable and non-renewable factoring in the sustainability problems of industrial agriculture (soil erosion, carbon depletion of soil, death of soil microbiome, groundwater depletion, etc) The parking ban for LPG in closed garages is a real problem, I have faced it myself. Though it is justifiable, but then it would also be justified for the BEVs as there were cases already where (heat from) a battery fire compromised the structural integrity parking complexes, so it is a manageable risk probably, and probably mostly legislative.
  - 3y ago
- bertil 3y ago
  Yeah, but that solution means your gallon of gas, or its propane equivalent, costs 45$.
  - nnevod 3y ago
    Electricity is way cheaper at the poont of generation than for residential consumer. IIRC, solar now gets to about 3$ per Mwth, so purely energy cost would be about 0.33$ per kg of propane if 100Mj of input energy per kg of propane stands for that electrolyser plus stated 13Mj for Co2 capture for 1 kg of propane. So, the cost is not negligible, but could be competetive even now, and solar is likely to get cheaper.
  - orthecreedence 3y ago
    How are you arriving at this number?
aqme28 3y ago
No matter how expensive it is, on a short enough timescale it is always going to be cheaper to use "renewable" propane over retrofitting to be electric.

Not if it’s a lot more expensive.

by bertil 3y ago

Not if it’s a lot more expensive.

You can run ICE cars on LPG (propane + butane, would probably work on pure propane as well), with minor (<1000$) modification in the fuel injection system and fitting a proper tank. This could make millions of older cars cleaner, also in the developing world. LPG is already cleaner, would benefit the developing world, and ICE engines can be produced without needing exotic materials, can be recycled 100% by smelting, are a proven, well known, durable technology, unlike lithium batteries (which are also proven, but recycling and exotic materials are problematic), and are and will be a popular technology in the developing world for a long time. Also it would allow for cheaper and cleaner cars in the developed world, where not everybody can afford the electric dream many here are living. It would also be somewhat suitable for long haul and heavy machinery, but most likely in a hybrid drivertrain setup. Also it would solve the big issue of the German home heating and industry: how to stove away the sun and wind from the summer to the winter, when in the windless dark days nowadays coal is burnt, as battery of hydro storage cannot be scaled beyond a few days capacity at extremes. There is already built, or cheap technology to gas powered solutions, no need to transition to new technology hastily. This would give runway to the green transition, as it could be net zero carbon footprint solution with less disturbance to the existing solutions.

coderenegade 3y ago
This. There's no way the global car fleet is switching over to electric any time soon. Globally there are around 1.2 billion cars, with 65 million or so sold each year, which puts us at 15-20 years for the fleet to be replaced if every single car sold from today were electric. Like it or not, internal combustion cars have many advantages, a big one being that they can run on different fuels. Converting to green LPG or (my pick) methanol will have to happen if we're serious about reducing transport emissions, because it's the only immediate non-cost-prohibitive option.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
What about cooling? As engines get smaller they quite often will dump in extra fuel under load to ensure the cylinder doesn't melt. E85 does that even better, as the cost of being less dense. But it cools so much better you can run higher boost. What about LPG? And if we want LPG to be something we still have to deal with legislation, like in many countries you can't park in an underground garage with LPG.
- ed_balls 3y ago
  > will dump in extra fuel under load to ensure the cylinder doesn't melt They dump extra fuel to prevent knock. It's hard to melt cylinders. > can't park in an underground garage with LPG And yet people park. I haven't heard about an accident in the last 5 years. Maybe it could be managed by an extra detector? LPG engines could be excellent generators (back ups or range extenders for cars and trucks). The emit less particulate matter and NOx.
- fodkodrasz 3y ago
  I'm not a mechanical engineer, but for one I have driven my father's LPG-converted car, and the cylinder didn't melt so far, so I think this is already more-or-less under control. Many car vendors in the EU (especially south and east) offered LPG-petrol bi-fuel powered cars out of the box. (I know of Dacia and Fiat for sure, and according to my brother LPG converted hybrid Priuses are popular in Poland for insanely cheap operations by cab drivers for example). For engines getting smaller: the LPG operation of petrol engines provides lower power output (and lower torque), so an uptick in LPG powered (dual fuel?) cars would probably mandate slightly different engines sensible (bigger ones), the market would surely adapt to it. E85 would also be fine if it wouldn't be manufactured from intensively farmed monocultural agricultural products, which make it totally non-sustainable and non-renewable factoring in the sustainability problems of industrial agriculture (soil erosion, carbon depletion of soil, death of soil microbiome, groundwater depletion, etc) The parking ban for LPG in closed garages is a real problem, I have faced it myself. Though it is justifiable, but then it would also be justified for the BEVs as there were cases already where (heat from) a battery fire compromised the structural integrity parking complexes, so it is a manageable risk probably, and probably mostly legislative.
- 3y ago
bertil 3y ago
Yeah, but that solution means your gallon of gas, or its propane equivalent, costs 45$.
- nnevod 3y ago
  Electricity is way cheaper at the poont of generation than for residential consumer. IIRC, solar now gets to about 3$ per Mwth, so purely energy cost would be about 0.33$ per kg of propane if 100Mj of input energy per kg of propane stands for that electrolyser plus stated 13Mj for Co2 capture for 1 kg of propane. So, the cost is not negligible, but could be competetive even now, and solar is likely to get cheaper.
- orthecreedence 3y ago
  How are you arriving at this number?

aqme28 3y ago

No matter how expensive it is, on a short enough timescale it is always going to be cheaper to use "renewable" propane over retrofitting to be electric.