6 ms·

Here in Austria parking takes up too much space, almost all new super markets here are still built single floor with parking around them instead of putting the

by TomK32 3y ago

Here in Austria parking takes up too much space, almost all new super markets here are still built single floor with parking around them instead of putting the parking on of the super market. Also, thanks to the remnants of the Reichsgaragenordnung houses are still built with at least one parking space per unit, though exemptions are possible. You are also always forced to take the parking space that comes with a rental unit, total nonsense in a city where car ownership is staring to decrease. Road parking is still far to cheap: permits to park in certain zones is only about 50 euros per year in Linz but at least there's a trend in Germany towoards much more expensive permits.

newaccount74 3y ago
> You are also always forced to take the parking space that comes with a rental unit I think that's usually just a trick to make rent seem cheaper. They advertise the appartment for 1000€, but when you look at it they say, oh, and the parking lot costs 150€ on top.
- TomK32 3y ago
  No, it's all regulated here, the advertised rent has to include all those details and in case of the housing cooperative where I rent from, the rent bill is split up in details showing me exactly how much the parking space costs. Loosening up this flat<->parking space bond is actually a recommendation in a paper on how to reduce surface parking in cities. Just can't find the paper right now.
nextlevelwizard 3y ago
Lately I see a lot of this "fuck cars" mentality and how cars are ruining the world and stuff, but never have I seen alternatives. Say all parking spaces vanish over night and now a lot of people are left with cars. What then? What is the next step? Are these people just expected to pay some fee to get their cars taken away? What if I need a car for commuting? Is it really reasonable to ask me to start using public transportation and completely revolve my life around a their schedule? Just this summer I saw attractive new apartment complex being built that I was going to buy an apartment from - until I saw that their parking structure doesn't have enough parking spaces for every apartment. Meaning that if I don't pay extra to nab one of the spaces (+ maintenance fees and whatnot) there wouldn't be a place for my car and all of a sudden there would only be tiny expensive grocery store as my only walkable shopping place or ordering takeout from even more expensive restaurants. I feel like this anti car sentiment comes from people who already don't have access to a car and have already molded their lives around public transportation and of course then it is easy to say we should get rid of cars. Just like it is easy for non-students to cut from stupid benefits, just like it is easy for non-parents to get rid children, etc, etc.
- TomK32 3y ago
  > I feel like this anti car sentiment comes from people who already don't have access to a car and have already molded their lives around public transportation and of course then it is easy to say we should get rid of cars. Are you sure you haven't been indoctrinated by the car industry that pushed you into this car dependency? It was the car industry that bought and destroyed the US street cars, that made jaywalking illegal in the US (no other country has those laws in such a strict manner) and lobbied quite hard to make cities are place for cars rather than people. If it's a war on cars, then it's just the long overdue counter offensive against cars. In all seriousness, I don't have a car (there's a car sharing in my city, but even for heavy loads I borrow a cargobike) but I also don't see the need to get rid of cars. It's just two points: Restrict the public space they take up in our cities and give people the choice to pick an alternative to the car. If you walk out the door in the morning and have options for your way to work, be it your bicycle, public transport or because you need to carry something large this morning, a car sharing vehicle, wouldn't that be a true freedom?
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >but never have I seen alternatives. You've never been outside the US, have you? >Is it really reasonable to ask me to start using public transportation and completely revolve my life around a their schedule? Tens of millions of people in my city do it every day. "Their schedule" means a train comes every 3 minutes.
  - nextlevelwizard 3y ago
    >You've never been outside the US, have you? You are right. Having lived all of my life in Finland, I have never been outside of US... oh wait... Again what is the alternative for me? To walk to the train station. Wait for the train that goes once per hour to spend 10 minutes on a train, so I can then walk to the bus station and wait for the bus that goes every 30 minutes, so I can take the bus for 15 minutes, so I can get - sort of close to work - and then walk for 5-10 minutes to work. In blistering snow storm. or I can just hope in my car and drive 15 minutes and be within 30 meters from my office door. Do you see how getting rid of cars doesn't seem to have alternative? >Tens of millions of people in my city do it every day. What if I don't live in your million people mega city? What if I live in my 30k people small city and commute because I don't want to pay out the ass to live in some shoe box?
lvncelot 3y ago
> but at least there's a trend in Germany towoards much more expensive permits. And oh boy do people kick and scream and call you every name in the book once you propose that they'll actually have pay for at least part of their externalized costs. During the pandemic, restaurants in Berlin were allowed to construct little outside seating areas on the side of the road, replacing parking spaces there. In some streets, this luckily has persisted, and it's eye-opening seeing what you can do with the space that parking takes up, which often times is free. (For example: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ZtaubWEAMShFW?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ZtaubWEAMShFW?format=jpg&name=...)
vladvasiliu 3y ago
Can't you convert the parking spaces to storage units? I've seen that done some around Paris. But probably not very often, since parking garages are a source of income for city-dwellers. They can be rented out to people coming in from the suburbs who don't happen to live close to a metro (or don't want to take their chances with crappier-by-the-day service).
- Skeime 3y ago
  That would be nice, but is often prevented by regulations. Essentially, the idea is that you might always get a car in the future (or move out and sell your home to a car owner), so the parking spot needs to be preserved for this possibility. Now, depending on how strictly the rules are interpreted, this can mean that you need to provide an actual parking spot at all times even if you don’t own a car (and do not have to let anyone use it!), or you might be allowed use the parking spot for other purposes, provided your changes are easily reversible. (So planting trees or building a shed is off limits, but placing down potted plants and some seating might be fine – as judged by someone of your local authorities.) Having an actual garage might also be preferable as a non-car owner, as that can at least serve as dry storage space while still counting as a parking spot. Last, the idea is still a bit inane. Japanese-style rules where you need to show that you have a parking spot when buying a car (instead of tying it all homes) would be much preferable in my book. But this is difficult, as there are still many places where streets are so old that cars did not yet exist when they were designed. (And the houses actually touch each other and the street, so there is no place where they could add parking.) These houses are usually exempt from needing to provide parking for their units. Doing it on a house-by-house basis instead of a car-owner-by-car-owner basis is just easier because of this.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    The way they do it here is that they just close up the space, but leave a big door. Some people actually still keep a vehicle in there, with some shelves or similar on the side. Of course, this doesn't work as well if you have a big-ass car and have a small space.

by TomK32 3y ago

newaccount74 3y ago

> You are also always forced to take the parking space that comes with a rental unit I think that's usually just a trick to make rent seem cheaper. They advertise the appartment for 1000€, but when you look at it they say, oh, and the parking lot costs 150€ on top.

TomK32 3y ago
No, it's all regulated here, the advertised rent has to include all those details and in case of the housing cooperative where I rent from, the rent bill is split up in details showing me exactly how much the parking space costs. Loosening up this flat<->parking space bond is actually a recommendation in a paper on how to reduce surface parking in cities. Just can't find the paper right now.

nextlevelwizard 3y ago

Lately I see a lot of this "fuck cars" mentality and how cars are ruining the world and stuff, but never have I seen alternatives. Say all parking spaces vanish over night and now a lot of people are left with cars. What then? What is the next step? Are these people just expected to pay some fee to get their cars taken away? What if I need a car for commuting? Is it really reasonable to ask me to start using public transportation and completely revolve my life around a their schedule? Just this summer I saw attractive new apartment complex being built that I was going to buy an apartment from - until I saw that their parking structure doesn't have enough parking spaces for every apartment. Meaning that if I don't pay extra to nab one of the spaces (+ maintenance fees and whatnot) there wouldn't be a place for my car and all of a sudden there would only be tiny expensive grocery store as my only walkable shopping place or ordering takeout from even more expensive restaurants. I feel like this anti car sentiment comes from people who already don't have access to a car and have already molded their lives around public transportation and of course then it is easy to say we should get rid of cars. Just like it is easy for non-students to cut from stupid benefits, just like it is easy for non-parents to get rid children, etc, etc.

TomK32 3y ago
> I feel like this anti car sentiment comes from people who already don't have access to a car and have already molded their lives around public transportation and of course then it is easy to say we should get rid of cars. Are you sure you haven't been indoctrinated by the car industry that pushed you into this car dependency? It was the car industry that bought and destroyed the US street cars, that made jaywalking illegal in the US (no other country has those laws in such a strict manner) and lobbied quite hard to make cities are place for cars rather than people. If it's a war on cars, then it's just the long overdue counter offensive against cars. In all seriousness, I don't have a car (there's a car sharing in my city, but even for heavy loads I borrow a cargobike) but I also don't see the need to get rid of cars. It's just two points: Restrict the public space they take up in our cities and give people the choice to pick an alternative to the car. If you walk out the door in the morning and have options for your way to work, be it your bicycle, public transport or because you need to carry something large this morning, a car sharing vehicle, wouldn't that be a true freedom?
midoridensha 3y ago
>but never have I seen alternatives. You've never been outside the US, have you? >Is it really reasonable to ask me to start using public transportation and completely revolve my life around a their schedule? Tens of millions of people in my city do it every day. "Their schedule" means a train comes every 3 minutes.
- nextlevelwizard 3y ago
  >You've never been outside the US, have you? You are right. Having lived all of my life in Finland, I have never been outside of US... oh wait... Again what is the alternative for me? To walk to the train station. Wait for the train that goes once per hour to spend 10 minutes on a train, so I can then walk to the bus station and wait for the bus that goes every 30 minutes, so I can take the bus for 15 minutes, so I can get - sort of close to work - and then walk for 5-10 minutes to work. In blistering snow storm. or I can just hope in my car and drive 15 minutes and be within 30 meters from my office door. Do you see how getting rid of cars doesn't seem to have alternative? >Tens of millions of people in my city do it every day. What if I don't live in your million people mega city? What if I live in my 30k people small city and commute because I don't want to pay out the ass to live in some shoe box?

lvncelot 3y ago

> but at least there's a trend in Germany towoards much more expensive permits. And oh boy do people kick and scream and call you every name in the book once you propose that they'll actually have pay for at least part of their externalized costs. During the pandemic, restaurants in Berlin were allowed to construct little outside seating areas on the side of the road, replacing parking spaces there. In some streets, this luckily has persisted, and it's eye-opening seeing what you can do with the space that parking takes up, which often times is free. (For example: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ZtaubWEAMShFW?format=jpg&name=small https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6ZtaubWEAMShFW?format=jpg&name=...)

vladvasiliu 3y ago

Can't you convert the parking spaces to storage units? I've seen that done some around Paris. But probably not very often, since parking garages are a source of income for city-dwellers. They can be rented out to people coming in from the suburbs who don't happen to live close to a metro (or don't want to take their chances with crappier-by-the-day service).

Skeime 3y ago
That would be nice, but is often prevented by regulations. Essentially, the idea is that you might always get a car in the future (or move out and sell your home to a car owner), so the parking spot needs to be preserved for this possibility. Now, depending on how strictly the rules are interpreted, this can mean that you need to provide an actual parking spot at all times even if you don’t own a car (and do not have to let anyone use it!), or you might be allowed use the parking spot for other purposes, provided your changes are easily reversible. (So planting trees or building a shed is off limits, but placing down potted plants and some seating might be fine – as judged by someone of your local authorities.) Having an actual garage might also be preferable as a non-car owner, as that can at least serve as dry storage space while still counting as a parking spot. Last, the idea is still a bit inane. Japanese-style rules where you need to show that you have a parking spot when buying a car (instead of tying it all homes) would be much preferable in my book. But this is difficult, as there are still many places where streets are so old that cars did not yet exist when they were designed. (And the houses actually touch each other and the street, so there is no place where they could add parking.) These houses are usually exempt from needing to provide parking for their units. Doing it on a house-by-house basis instead of a car-owner-by-car-owner basis is just easier because of this.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  The way they do it here is that they just close up the space, but leave a big door. Some people actually still keep a vehicle in there, with some shelves or similar on the side. Of course, this doesn't work as well if you have a big-ass car and have a small space.