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> Sword users can learn new techniques. Wizards can learn new spells. Characters can become visibly stronger, or to learn to wield stronger arcane forces. But a

> Sword users can learn new techniques. Wizards can learn new spells. Characters can become visibly stronger, or to learn to wield stronger arcane forces. But a guy with a gun can... what? Get a bigger gun? You can imagine wizards but you can't imagine more creative guns and guns-usage? For being into fantasy, you seemingly drop the ball on the whole "made up" stuff. What's to say there aren't different techniques to using guns where one user is better than another? Or since we're in fantasy, that some characters can learn how to avoid getting shot better than others.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
In fantasy the abilities of wizards and sword fighters are plausible within the constraints & difference with the real world. Eg magic isn't real and people don't fight with swords, so we're in an unknown territory where a large range of techniques are plausibly effective. You don't know a wizard so you can't really tell me this spell wouldn't work in this conflict, you know? But people do fight with guns, and the abilities and techniques of guns and what advantages they offer are well understood, pressure tested in real conflict, and easy to find out about. The area of unknown is small, and so mostly the plausible techniques are the real ones. You can tweak the plausibility by fuzzing off from real world uses with things like laser guns or muzzle-loading black powder, though that's still much better understood than wizard magic. You see a similar thing with fantasy melee too. Fencing is well understood even in the modern world, but how many fantasy sword fighters are recognizably fencers?
Ensorceled 3y ago
Do you have examples of cool things a guy with a gun can do? As some kind of growth curve? That are on par with, for example, Ged growing to become archmage? I've seen "Wanted" and it wasn't that compelling. Sam Sykes does a decent job in "Seven Blades of Black" ... but even that only works because the gun is a VERY magical device.
- Shorel 3y ago
  The only good example I know is the gun-kata from Equilibrium.
  - AstralStorm 3y ago
    John Wick being the more recent example.
- capableweb 3y ago
  I'm no sci-fi writer, so surely someone who is could come up with something better. But basically the development of a wizard could be applied to a gunslinger as well. In the beginning, character has zero skills, they miss shots and not able to succeed in any battles. The character learns to control their breathing, emotions, posture, aiming and so on, to become more proficient. They learn how to "quick draw" in order to shot by instinct, learn how to do tactical reloads and so on. Different guns also have different strengths, some better in close combat and so on. Just like a wizard has different potions, the guns have different ammunition. Some ammunition could have "special" effects, like exploding on impact, EMPs or whatever. Crucially, the character learns that patience, strategy, and emotional control is the most important, just like a wizard would. This is just what I could come up with as I wrote the comment, so again, surely someone proficient in writing sci-fi/fantasy could come up with something much greater. But it's not hard to imagine it's not impossible to have character growth with someone who wields a pistol.
  - Ensorceled 3y ago
    But that's the thing ... that isn't realistic and, hence, not compelling story. I became very good with both a rifle and pistol pretty much on my own. It took years of training with masters of the craft to become proficient as a martial artist.
    - capableweb 3y ago
      We're talking about wizards and stuff here, I don't think "realism" is as a hard constraint as you think. And surely someone with real combat experience would have less chance of dying in combat compared to someone (like you) who have none nor have been trained by someone who have real combat experience. Is it really that hard to imagine that one person with a gun could be more skilled because of training, knowledge and experience, than another person with a gun?
      - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        Oh my god is that true. My son returned from Iraq mid-tour on a break. His younger brother had an airsoft game (stay with me) going on, after dark, with a dozen friends. They'd build an airsoft tower (small building, windows and a rooftop vantage) and were playing capture the tower. He chatted, loaded an airsoft rifle, and we walked down the lane to the field. As he talked to me he was casting his gaze around, raising his rifle occasionally, firing off a shot. We just walked to the tower, no attempt at concealment, no special gear. By the time we'd gotten there everybody was reloading at the reload station. He'd hit everybody, in the dark, in the grass or in the tower. Proceeded to reorganize them into squads and play for an hour or two. Had a blast that night, lots of scenarios, everybody got to play a role. Anyway yes, training makes all the difference. Holding the weapon, pointing it are the basics they teach the first day.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  You’d need some counter to bullets that is just as strong or interesting. The real world doesn’t really have one. There’s very little a human or even a tank can do against a sufficiently large explosion. Then when you have that you can have the hero evolve to work around those limits. What I’ve mostly seen obsolete guns is generally a sort of shield.
  - AstralStorm 3y ago
    Ballistic shields are a thing really. Though the portable onea only do small calibre. To have something interesting against explosions you need to go sci-fi or have some magic that can dampen them. We had a lot of sport having fire and alchemical powder be extremely overpowered in e.g. D&D. Villain lair lacks an entrance? Blow up a hole. This castle has walls? Dig and mine it. Enemy has an army? Now they don't, it exploded...
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      My players had a thing for flour explosions.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Lots of skills. Not just different ammo. Rapid fire, rapid reload, double wield, night vision, double tap. The list goes on.
  - AstralStorm 3y ago
    Really these skills, while slightly useful are inferior to just crackshot aim, ambush and improvisation.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      Yes but in a fantasy context, there is a lot to work with.

giraffe_lady 3y ago

In fantasy the abilities of wizards and sword fighters are plausible within the constraints & difference with the real world. Eg magic isn't real and people don't fight with swords, so we're in an unknown territory where a large range of techniques are plausibly effective. You don't know a wizard so you can't really tell me this spell wouldn't work in this conflict, you know? But people do fight with guns, and the abilities and techniques of guns and what advantages they offer are well understood, pressure tested in real conflict, and easy to find out about. The area of unknown is small, and so mostly the plausible techniques are the real ones. You can tweak the plausibility by fuzzing off from real world uses with things like laser guns or muzzle-loading black powder, though that's still much better understood than wizard magic. You see a similar thing with fantasy melee too. Fencing is well understood even in the modern world, but how many fantasy sword fighters are recognizably fencers?

Ensorceled 3y ago

Do you have examples of cool things a guy with a gun can do? As some kind of growth curve? That are on par with, for example, Ged growing to become archmage? I've seen "Wanted" and it wasn't that compelling. Sam Sykes does a decent job in "Seven Blades of Black" ... but even that only works because the gun is a VERY magical device.

Shorel 3y ago
The only good example I know is the gun-kata from Equilibrium.
- AstralStorm 3y ago
  John Wick being the more recent example.
capableweb 3y ago
I'm no sci-fi writer, so surely someone who is could come up with something better. But basically the development of a wizard could be applied to a gunslinger as well. In the beginning, character has zero skills, they miss shots and not able to succeed in any battles. The character learns to control their breathing, emotions, posture, aiming and so on, to become more proficient. They learn how to "quick draw" in order to shot by instinct, learn how to do tactical reloads and so on. Different guns also have different strengths, some better in close combat and so on. Just like a wizard has different potions, the guns have different ammunition. Some ammunition could have "special" effects, like exploding on impact, EMPs or whatever. Crucially, the character learns that patience, strategy, and emotional control is the most important, just like a wizard would. This is just what I could come up with as I wrote the comment, so again, surely someone proficient in writing sci-fi/fantasy could come up with something much greater. But it's not hard to imagine it's not impossible to have character growth with someone who wields a pistol.
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  But that's the thing ... that isn't realistic and, hence, not compelling story. I became very good with both a rifle and pistol pretty much on my own. It took years of training with masters of the craft to become proficient as a martial artist.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    We're talking about wizards and stuff here, I don't think "realism" is as a hard constraint as you think. And surely someone with real combat experience would have less chance of dying in combat compared to someone (like you) who have none nor have been trained by someone who have real combat experience. Is it really that hard to imagine that one person with a gun could be more skilled because of training, knowledge and experience, than another person with a gun?
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      Oh my god is that true. My son returned from Iraq mid-tour on a break. His younger brother had an airsoft game (stay with me) going on, after dark, with a dozen friends. They'd build an airsoft tower (small building, windows and a rooftop vantage) and were playing capture the tower. He chatted, loaded an airsoft rifle, and we walked down the lane to the field. As he talked to me he was casting his gaze around, raising his rifle occasionally, firing off a shot. We just walked to the tower, no attempt at concealment, no special gear. By the time we'd gotten there everybody was reloading at the reload station. He'd hit everybody, in the dark, in the grass or in the tower. Proceeded to reorganize them into squads and play for an hour or two. Had a blast that night, lots of scenarios, everybody got to play a role. Anyway yes, training makes all the difference. Holding the weapon, pointing it are the basics they teach the first day.
Aeolun 3y ago
You’d need some counter to bullets that is just as strong or interesting. The real world doesn’t really have one. There’s very little a human or even a tank can do against a sufficiently large explosion. Then when you have that you can have the hero evolve to work around those limits. What I’ve mostly seen obsolete guns is generally a sort of shield.
- AstralStorm 3y ago
  Ballistic shields are a thing really. Though the portable onea only do small calibre. To have something interesting against explosions you need to go sci-fi or have some magic that can dampen them. We had a lot of sport having fire and alchemical powder be extremely overpowered in e.g. D&D. Villain lair lacks an entrance? Blow up a hole. This castle has walls? Dig and mine it. Enemy has an army? Now they don't, it exploded...
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    My players had a thing for flour explosions.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Lots of skills. Not just different ammo. Rapid fire, rapid reload, double wield, night vision, double tap. The list goes on.
- AstralStorm 3y ago
  Really these skills, while slightly useful are inferior to just crackshot aim, ambush and improvisation.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    Yes but in a fantasy context, there is a lot to work with.