5 ms·

I develop, test, and debug on browsers that my users are using, and that ain't Firefox.

by EspressoGPT 3y ago

danlindley 3y ago
Are you comfortable handing Google the power to dictate the future of the Internet?
- gumballindie 3y ago
  It's the customers handing power to google, not the devs.
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    It’s both, however, developers have a disproportional amount of power to tip the balance.
    - jwells89 3y ago
      Yep. The only reason why Firefox, Safari, and eventually Chrome were able topple IE is because devs started writing predominantly for those browsers. Without that push IE would’ve lived on, because users don’t switch that kind of thing unless they really have to. Devs often also have disproportionate sway over the technical choices of friends and family, which is where Firefox got much of its footing earlier on.
      - throwawaysleep 3y ago
        That’s because Firefox was better then IE. It felt better to use. It was faster. Firefox has no compelling reason to exist for the average user unless privacy is a really high priority for you.
      - rohansingh 3y ago
        That's not really how I remember it. I remember everyone switching to Mozilla and Firefox because they had great features around bookmarks, themes, and extensions. Then I remember everyone switching to Chrome because it was so fast to launch. Meanwhile, devs were still targeting IE because it was where the users were. It was totally preferable to develop for Chrome or Firefox, but I recall spending countless hours still getting that stuff to IE, because that's what customers were using. Sure, developers helped speed along adoption, but I think the new browsers ultimately succeeded because they're better products for the customer.
        tambourine_man 3y ago
        Firefox was a better product because it was faster, had tabs, etc and it generally rendered pages as expected. That, in a large part, was on web developers, making sure the user who took the leap had a good time on arrival.
        zogrodea 3y ago
        We can see a common sentiment by developers on this thread that they mostly test on Chrome, because that's where users are. I don't think it's likely many developers put in the effort for making the experience of using Firefox better when Firefox had such few users.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    It's both, as in a vicious circle. Sometimes "customers" don't really hold that much power. For example, I have to use my YubiKey with AzureAD at work. This is broken on Firefox on Linux, but works on Chrome. I can't just not log on to my work email and such. I would have chosen something else than AzureAD, but here we are. I hate having to use multiple browsers, but I still want to support Firefox and only use chrome whenever I depend on AzureAD and make it a point to complain about it. What good did that do? MS sure doesn't care about it. "Just use windows". Right. I'd argue many "customers" could possibly be convinced to drop Chrome in favor of Firefox, I don't think they care as much as HN posters do about this subject. They just want a thing that works. But if half the sites don't work, for whatever reason, they won't be wrangling two browsers like me. They'll just use Chrome and call it a day. So whose fault is it that sites don't support Firefox? 90% of my colleagues couldn't code to save their lives (it's not their job, granted). And the other 10% will just go for what's quicker / easiest to implement. "Everyone uses chrome? Testing on chrome, it is.".
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Depends, many devs are too keen in using only Chrome and shipping desktop applications packaged in a Chrome shell, because "writing portable code is soooo hard.". Many of whom only care about Safari, because contrary to Firefox, Apple gets to say Chrome doesn't own their platforms.
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  The Firefox foundation is the one who ceded power through poor decisions. Devs don't get to decide what users browse on. All users use chrome today and that's it.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Firefox had no choice in the matter of Chrome's dominance. Google controls the biggest web properties and has the most money to spend advertising and bundling it. Anti-trust has had no teeth in decades. The web was theirs for the taking.
nottorp 3y ago
Of course, Firefox users may just skip your sites because they don't work in FF...
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  All none of them? All none users?
- oefrha 3y ago
  Developing in Chrome doesn’t mean the end result doesn’t work in Firefox. Web standards are there for a reason. I develop in Chrome (by develop I mean the full interactive development cycle) but also check in Firefox and Safari once in a while. This post is explicitly about why people use Chrome’s devtools, so you’re just attacking a strawman.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Perhaps you should read the comment I'm replying to? Editing to not extend the thread: the comment says they do NOT test on anything than Chrome. You maybe do that, the top comment author doesn't.
    - oefrha 3y ago
      I read it, and it’s exactly what I do — develop, test and debug in Chrome. Then I check the site isn’t broken in Firefox and Safari once in a while. It basically never is.
  - zogrodea 3y ago
    Would you mind spelling the difference a bit more clearly? The comment chain has another comment that the browsers developers actually develop for a specific browser (usually Chrome because larger userbase), and this choice developers make influences which browsers users like to use because websites supposedly work better on that browser. So there seems to be variation in implementing the standards you refer to. I don't know much about browser diversity (Chrome and Firefox give near-identical experiences to me as a user), so I personally don't feel that the argument developers significantly influence users holds much water (of course facts don't care about my feelings which may be wrong). I think the only time I noticed a significant difference as a user was when Firefox didn't implement a certain download API allowing for large downloads like Chrome, and I only encountered that difference in using Mega (the upload service).
tonetheman 3y ago
This is the correct answer. You look at your stats and put your time where it is needed. I like Firefox but it just not popular. And getting a few more devs to use it will not help.
tambourine_man 3y ago
Browsers are so similar these days, web standards are so well defined, I see little reason to code Chrome-only sites. Having been through the IEs of the 90s/00s, I feel proud that we managed to scape what seemed an irreversible fate and a sense of responsibility to do whatever I can to help prevent it from happening again.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Try to use WebUSB or WebGPU on Firefox.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    I’m not sure about WebGPU, but WebUSB was pushed through by Google without any regard at all for Mozilla’s and Apple’s concerns, so it’s not too surprising it’s a Chrome exclusive.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      So it isn't as well defined as the parent was making it. Thanks to Chrome worshipping, there is no Web anymore, Apple is the only wall preventing Web developers to replace Web with ChromeOS on their CV.
      - politelemon 3y ago
        That is not true, two harmful environments does not make either one a saviour, they are simply making web development worse.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Sorry to break it to you, without Apple, Google would have won already. Doesn't matter how good or evil they happen to be. No one cares about Firefox, apparently not even the large majority of HN folks.
        3y ago
ericfrazier 3y ago
[dead]

I develop, test, and debug on browsers that my users are using, and that ain't Firefox.

danlindley 3y ago

Are you comfortable handing Google the power to dictate the future of the Internet?

gumballindie 3y ago
It's the customers handing power to google, not the devs.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  It’s both, however, developers have a disproportional amount of power to tip the balance.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Yep. The only reason why Firefox, Safari, and eventually Chrome were able topple IE is because devs started writing predominantly for those browsers. Without that push IE would’ve lived on, because users don’t switch that kind of thing unless they really have to. Devs often also have disproportionate sway over the technical choices of friends and family, which is where Firefox got much of its footing earlier on.
    - throwawaysleep 3y ago
      That’s because Firefox was better then IE. It felt better to use. It was faster. Firefox has no compelling reason to exist for the average user unless privacy is a really high priority for you.
    - rohansingh 3y ago
      That's not really how I remember it. I remember everyone switching to Mozilla and Firefox because they had great features around bookmarks, themes, and extensions. Then I remember everyone switching to Chrome because it was so fast to launch. Meanwhile, devs were still targeting IE because it was where the users were. It was totally preferable to develop for Chrome or Firefox, but I recall spending countless hours still getting that stuff to IE, because that's what customers were using. Sure, developers helped speed along adoption, but I think the new browsers ultimately succeeded because they're better products for the customer.
      - tambourine_man 3y ago
        Firefox was a better product because it was faster, had tabs, etc and it generally rendered pages as expected. That, in a large part, was on web developers, making sure the user who took the leap had a good time on arrival.
        zogrodea 3y ago
        We can see a common sentiment by developers on this thread that they mostly test on Chrome, because that's where users are. I don't think it's likely many developers put in the effort for making the experience of using Firefox better when Firefox had such few users.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  It's both, as in a vicious circle. Sometimes "customers" don't really hold that much power. For example, I have to use my YubiKey with AzureAD at work. This is broken on Firefox on Linux, but works on Chrome. I can't just not log on to my work email and such. I would have chosen something else than AzureAD, but here we are. I hate having to use multiple browsers, but I still want to support Firefox and only use chrome whenever I depend on AzureAD and make it a point to complain about it. What good did that do? MS sure doesn't care about it. "Just use windows". Right. I'd argue many "customers" could possibly be convinced to drop Chrome in favor of Firefox, I don't think they care as much as HN posters do about this subject. They just want a thing that works. But if half the sites don't work, for whatever reason, they won't be wrangling two browsers like me. They'll just use Chrome and call it a day. So whose fault is it that sites don't support Firefox? 90% of my colleagues couldn't code to save their lives (it's not their job, granted). And the other 10% will just go for what's quicker / easiest to implement. "Everyone uses chrome? Testing on chrome, it is.".
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Depends, many devs are too keen in using only Chrome and shipping desktop applications packaged in a Chrome shell, because "writing portable code is soooo hard.". Many of whom only care about Safari, because contrary to Firefox, Apple gets to say Chrome doesn't own their platforms.
ericfrazier 3y ago
The Firefox foundation is the one who ceded power through poor decisions. Devs don't get to decide what users browse on. All users use chrome today and that's it.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Firefox had no choice in the matter of Chrome's dominance. Google controls the biggest web properties and has the most money to spend advertising and bundling it. Anti-trust has had no teeth in decades. The web was theirs for the taking.

nottorp 3y ago

Of course, Firefox users may just skip your sites because they don't work in FF...

ericfrazier 3y ago
All none of them? All none users?
oefrha 3y ago
Developing in Chrome doesn’t mean the end result doesn’t work in Firefox. Web standards are there for a reason. I develop in Chrome (by develop I mean the full interactive development cycle) but also check in Firefox and Safari once in a while. This post is explicitly about why people use Chrome’s devtools, so you’re just attacking a strawman.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Perhaps you should read the comment I'm replying to? Editing to not extend the thread: the comment says they do NOT test on anything than Chrome. You maybe do that, the top comment author doesn't.
  - oefrha 3y ago
    I read it, and it’s exactly what I do — develop, test and debug in Chrome. Then I check the site isn’t broken in Firefox and Safari once in a while. It basically never is.
- zogrodea 3y ago
  Would you mind spelling the difference a bit more clearly? The comment chain has another comment that the browsers developers actually develop for a specific browser (usually Chrome because larger userbase), and this choice developers make influences which browsers users like to use because websites supposedly work better on that browser. So there seems to be variation in implementing the standards you refer to. I don't know much about browser diversity (Chrome and Firefox give near-identical experiences to me as a user), so I personally don't feel that the argument developers significantly influence users holds much water (of course facts don't care about my feelings which may be wrong). I think the only time I noticed a significant difference as a user was when Firefox didn't implement a certain download API allowing for large downloads like Chrome, and I only encountered that difference in using Mega (the upload service).

tonetheman 3y ago

This is the correct answer. You look at your stats and put your time where it is needed. I like Firefox but it just not popular. And getting a few more devs to use it will not help.

tambourine_man 3y ago

Browsers are so similar these days, web standards are so well defined, I see little reason to code Chrome-only sites. Having been through the IEs of the 90s/00s, I feel proud that we managed to scape what seemed an irreversible fate and a sense of responsibility to do whatever I can to help prevent it from happening again.

pjmlp 3y ago
Try to use WebUSB or WebGPU on Firefox.
- jwells89 3y ago
  I’m not sure about WebGPU, but WebUSB was pushed through by Google without any regard at all for Mozilla’s and Apple’s concerns, so it’s not too surprising it’s a Chrome exclusive.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    So it isn't as well defined as the parent was making it. Thanks to Chrome worshipping, there is no Web anymore, Apple is the only wall preventing Web developers to replace Web with ChromeOS on their CV.
    - politelemon 3y ago
      That is not true, two harmful environments does not make either one a saviour, they are simply making web development worse.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Sorry to break it to you, without Apple, Google would have won already. Doesn't matter how good or evil they happen to be. No one cares about Firefox, apparently not even the large majority of HN folks.
        3y ago

ericfrazier 3y ago

[dead]