3 ms·

I've only used MacOS for a year and only recently (maybe that matters), and I get all the same crappy inconsistent behaviour I do on Linux and did on Windows ~2

I've only used MacOS for a year and only recently (maybe that matters), and I get all the same crappy inconsistent behaviour I do on Linux and did on Windows ~20 years ago when I last used it. Apple has the benefit of controlling both hw and sw and still manage to mess it up. Random crashes, slowdowns for long running sessions, crappy UI (eg those labels not checking their checkboxes in Settings), network weirdness (both USB ethernet dongles/hubs and internal WiFi), my USB audio interface picking up garbled audio which requires reselecting audio interface for it to fix itself... Maybe I am doing something different, but it's even worse than Linux for the most part.

moonchrome 3y ago
You haven't used Windows in quite a while have you ? Past Windows 7 it's been sliding downhill into bullshit UX, crapware, backend migration to Linux almost exclusively, etc. Random things on top of my head : MacOS doesn't come with candy crush, Instagram, TikTok, Spotify etc. prepopulating your start menu. Phone home telemetry and ads in OS ? Yummy Dealing with Windows dev environment is always a PITA eventually - unless you're doing stuff where Windows is first class citizen (like games). For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. On Windows it's always some path issues, stuff randomly breaking between updates, missing/incompatible CLI, etc. Brew is pretty good. Chocolatey is garbage. MacOS is fairly visually consistent. Windows regularly has me in Windows XP era screens, reached through 3 inconsistent UX steps developed along the way. Even Linux is better in this regard. I like Linux when it works. Mac works more often. Windows is just a dumpster fire at this point.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Phone home telemetry and ads in OS ? MacOS also has telemetry. >For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. Then Windows would be better than MacOS in this regard because WSL2 is exactly Linux, not just "fairly similar" to Linux. >stuff randomly breaking between updates What stuff broke for you between updates? Our entire DS team develops in windows + WSL2 and nothing broke for them in ~5 years. Maybe they know how to use a computer. Ultimately just use what you like and what makes you productive, no need to crusade for some big corporation. The OS is just a tool for your job, like a hammer.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    > Right click -> Remove. Done. 2 seconds. Surely you aren't making the argument that Microsoft is generous enough to let you remove their bloatware?
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      That's a nice strawman you got there, give him a spin so we can admire it in all its glory.
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        My dude I literally quoted what you said, at least before you edited your comment to remove it.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >My dude I literally quoted what you said You quoted what I said then turned it into this strawman for a snarky jab: "Surely you aren't making the argument that Microsoft is generous enough to let you remove their bloatware?" >at least before you edited your comment to remove it. I removed more points because the comment was getting huge.
        saagarjha 3y ago
        You posted a comment that seems to have a thesis of “Windows isn’t actually as bad as you think it is”. Is that correct? If not, what were you trying to convey? If you had posted your statement in isolation or in a different context it might have a different meaning but I’m not seeing many interpretations here besides “yeah it’s actually super easy to remove this junk so it’s not a big deal”. The question is why it’s there in the first place?
  - hobobaggins 3y ago
    > Maybe they know how to use a computer. Seems uncalled for.
- hobobaggins 3y ago
  Windows Pro (and K/N versions), as well as Enterprise, should minimize the consumer-oriented software.
- blackoil 3y ago
  > MacOS is fairly visually consistent. Windows regularly has me in Windows XP era screens, reached through 3 inconsistent UX steps developed along the way. I take that as a feature and is the whole crux of this discussion. I don't need ODBC or many such archaic features but if someday I need to use it, I trust it will be working.
- vips7L 3y ago
  > Dealing with Windows dev environment is always a PITA eventually - unless you're doing stuff where Windows is first class citizen (like games). For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. On Windows it's always some path issues, stuff randomly breaking between updates, missing/incompatible CLI, etc. YMMV but my experience is the opposite. Windows is a perfectly usable dev environment. The only time I face issues is when developers don’t choose to use cross platform tools. > Chocolatey is garbage. I’ll give you this one, but that’s why anyone serious on Windows is using scoop.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Windows 11'a main sin is Edge IMO. The start menu junk is shitty, but can be dealt with in matters of minutes. On the dev part, WSL2 basically make the point moot, an actual debian is way easier to deal with than brew. Now have you tried uninstalling Apple Music ? or found a way to disable it from launching everytime you press the play button on your headset with no media player running ? In the last few years I've looked at every macos updates with more an more dread of things that will stop working and generic enshitification. Windows stays more "in your face" on the cheap marketing stuff, but it also brought in a lot more improvements than macos did in the last 10 years, so I don't as much difference in experience as in the past.
- necovek 3y ago
  Linux works more often for me than Mac, but I also have two decades of experience using it, so it may just be that I am more comfortable. With so many webtech-apps (Slack, Google calendar...) and non-native UI browsers (Firefox/Chrome), visual consistency is lost anyway, so I stopped caring (the best experience I had was with GNOME in 2.* early HIG/a11y days when I used Epiphany as the web browser) — oh yeah, I use Emacs too, so there's that :) Still, most common Mac-as-Linux approach with Docker Desktop is an incompatible emulation layer (eg. local UIDs are transformed into root UID on Mac, whereas they are not on Linux, so you get weird permission errors if you develop on Mac and rebuild/redeploy on Linux).
soraminazuki 3y ago
> Random crashes, slowdowns for long running sessions I've been using Macs for a decade, and the only time I had this happen was on corporate laptops with antivirus software installed. Antivirus software are poorly written and they used to have constantly crashing kernel extensions. Apple has been deprecating kernel extensions in recent years, so the situation is improving. But the performance hit caused by antivirus crapware is unfortunately still a thing.

moonchrome 3y ago

You haven't used Windows in quite a while have you ? Past Windows 7 it's been sliding downhill into bullshit UX, crapware, backend migration to Linux almost exclusively, etc. Random things on top of my head : MacOS doesn't come with candy crush, Instagram, TikTok, Spotify etc. prepopulating your start menu. Phone home telemetry and ads in OS ? Yummy Dealing with Windows dev environment is always a PITA eventually - unless you're doing stuff where Windows is first class citizen (like games). For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. On Windows it's always some path issues, stuff randomly breaking between updates, missing/incompatible CLI, etc. Brew is pretty good. Chocolatey is garbage. MacOS is fairly visually consistent. Windows regularly has me in Windows XP era screens, reached through 3 inconsistent UX steps developed along the way. Even Linux is better in this regard. I like Linux when it works. Mac works more often. Windows is just a dumpster fire at this point.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Phone home telemetry and ads in OS ? MacOS also has telemetry. >For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. Then Windows would be better than MacOS in this regard because WSL2 is exactly Linux, not just "fairly similar" to Linux. >stuff randomly breaking between updates What stuff broke for you between updates? Our entire DS team develops in windows + WSL2 and nothing broke for them in ~5 years. Maybe they know how to use a computer. Ultimately just use what you like and what makes you productive, no need to crusade for some big corporation. The OS is just a tool for your job, like a hammer.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  > Right click -> Remove. Done. 2 seconds. Surely you aren't making the argument that Microsoft is generous enough to let you remove their bloatware?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    That's a nice strawman you got there, give him a spin so we can admire it in all its glory.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      My dude I literally quoted what you said, at least before you edited your comment to remove it.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >My dude I literally quoted what you said You quoted what I said then turned it into this strawman for a snarky jab: "Surely you aren't making the argument that Microsoft is generous enough to let you remove their bloatware?" >at least before you edited your comment to remove it. I removed more points because the comment was getting huge.
        saagarjha 3y ago
        You posted a comment that seems to have a thesis of “Windows isn’t actually as bad as you think it is”. Is that correct? If not, what were you trying to convey? If you had posted your statement in isolation or in a different context it might have a different meaning but I’m not seeing many interpretations here besides “yeah it’s actually super easy to remove this junk so it’s not a big deal”. The question is why it’s there in the first place?
- hobobaggins 3y ago
  > Maybe they know how to use a computer. Seems uncalled for.
hobobaggins 3y ago
Windows Pro (and K/N versions), as well as Enterprise, should minimize the consumer-oriented software.
blackoil 3y ago
> MacOS is fairly visually consistent. Windows regularly has me in Windows XP era screens, reached through 3 inconsistent UX steps developed along the way. I take that as a feature and is the whole crux of this discussion. I don't need ODBC or many such archaic features but if someday I need to use it, I trust it will be working.
vips7L 3y ago
> Dealing with Windows dev environment is always a PITA eventually - unless you're doing stuff where Windows is first class citizen (like games). For backend stuff it's almost implicit that you're running on Linux in prod and macos is well supported because it's fairly similar. On Windows it's always some path issues, stuff randomly breaking between updates, missing/incompatible CLI, etc. YMMV but my experience is the opposite. Windows is a perfectly usable dev environment. The only time I face issues is when developers don’t choose to use cross platform tools. > Chocolatey is garbage. I’ll give you this one, but that’s why anyone serious on Windows is using scoop.
makeitdouble 3y ago
Windows 11'a main sin is Edge IMO. The start menu junk is shitty, but can be dealt with in matters of minutes. On the dev part, WSL2 basically make the point moot, an actual debian is way easier to deal with than brew. Now have you tried uninstalling Apple Music ? or found a way to disable it from launching everytime you press the play button on your headset with no media player running ? In the last few years I've looked at every macos updates with more an more dread of things that will stop working and generic enshitification. Windows stays more "in your face" on the cheap marketing stuff, but it also brought in a lot more improvements than macos did in the last 10 years, so I don't as much difference in experience as in the past.
necovek 3y ago
Linux works more often for me than Mac, but I also have two decades of experience using it, so it may just be that I am more comfortable. With so many webtech-apps (Slack, Google calendar...) and non-native UI browsers (Firefox/Chrome), visual consistency is lost anyway, so I stopped caring (the best experience I had was with GNOME in 2.* early HIG/a11y days when I used Epiphany as the web browser) — oh yeah, I use Emacs too, so there's that :) Still, most common Mac-as-Linux approach with Docker Desktop is an incompatible emulation layer (eg. local UIDs are transformed into root UID on Mac, whereas they are not on Linux, so you get weird permission errors if you develop on Mac and rebuild/redeploy on Linux).

soraminazuki 3y ago

> Random crashes, slowdowns for long running sessions I've been using Macs for a decade, and the only time I had this happen was on corporate laptops with antivirus software installed. Antivirus software are poorly written and they used to have constantly crashing kernel extensions. Apple has been deprecating kernel extensions in recent years, so the situation is improving. But the performance hit caused by antivirus crapware is unfortunately still a thing.