4 ms·

I'm assuming you're a North American like myself. I find it shocking how attitudes towards health and food in Europe are so different from here. Flying back fro

I'm assuming you're a North American like myself. I find it shocking how attitudes towards health and food in Europe are so different from here. Flying back from France or Italy through the USA is a surreal experience -- obesity is a major problem in America and a pretty bad one in Canada as well. I am convinced it's not a problem of willpower, but the food just being engineered to be addictive and overly flavourful at any cost.

farseer 3y ago
ahhhh Doritos!
- mmastrac 3y ago
  Not even once. (too late)
wkat4242 3y ago
Yeah it's difficult, bodyshaming is too much of a thing. Even something as simple as MSG makes you want to eat much more. MSG occurs naturally in some foods but they tended to be really expensive (e.g. highly matured cheeses) so it was not such a big deal. But now it's added to everything.
- ska 3y ago
  It's true that MSG content in e.g. aged parmesan is high... but it's not so low in e.g. cheddar and people tend to use a lot more of that. Also mushrooms, tomatoes, etc. especially dried. Mainly staying away from too much processed foods helps, but MSG content isnt' the main problem with them, it's a combination of flavoring agents + very high calorie density.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I don't know, it feels like they are engineered. Sometimes I'm not hungry at all but I take a small bowl of potato chips with a movie. Then after that I get a real craving for MORE. And I end up eating the whole bag. It's weird. I don't have it before I start. Maybe other more natural snacks would be better yes but they are just so nice.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    That "cheddar" isn't cheddar. It's probably not even cheese. It's a yellow melting slab. Not a lot of people actually eat real cheddar.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      True, the cheddar I'd use to get in Ireland was very different than the yellow plastic-wrapped slices you get in the supermarket, or the gooey slabs at McDonald's. It was more crumbly and a darker orange colour. Also much stronger taste. They had it in the supermarket but it was not the wrapped-slice stuff but sold in bricks. I'm surprised they're allowed call that stuff Cheddar actually.
    - ska 3y ago
      If I recall correctly, the MSG content in both is not inconsiderable, so this isn't really a counterpoint.
adventured 3y ago
Obesity is a major problem across Europe increasingly [0]. Britain is nearly as obese as the US now for example. Australia and New Zealand have similar obesity problems as the US and Canada. Europe is just catching up to the mistakes the US has made since the 1980s. Some nations are faring better due to their culture (strongly ingrained behaviors) holding back the mistakes, such as eg France. [0] WHO report: Europe can reverse its obesity “epidemic” | https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/03-05-2022-new-who-report--europe-can-reverse-its-obesity--epidemic https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/03-05-2022-new-who-repo... "The report, launched at a press event on 3 May and presented at the European Congress on Obesity, reveals that in the European Region, 59% of adults and almost 1 in 3 children (29% of boys and 27% of girls) are overweight or living with obesity. Obesity prevalence for adults in the European Region is higher than in any other WHO region except for the Americas."
- mmastrac 3y ago
  While Europe is not immune (and obesity is rising), I suspect the EU will have a much more pro-active attitude towards stemming the rise. It's hard to find data, but America had an early, meteoric rise in obesity starting in the 90s (after a slow rise in the 80s) that I believe is far worse than what Europe saw. Europe is catching up, however, and I imagine there's at least some "americanization" of food to be blamed here.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    One little data point. Until like 10 years ago you never got sauces with your food (except fast food), and especially not in your salads here. Now there's a full sauce menu everywhere and I suspect coleslaw defeats the point of having a salad completely.
    - pacaro 3y ago
      Particularly the way coleslaw is presented in the US. You can make a perfectly delicious and healthful coleslaw without mayonnaise or cream (or sugar!) I just looked at the ingredients of a premade coleslaw (Safeway). The second and third ingredients are mayonnaise and sugar respectively.
heyjamesknight 3y ago
Unfortunately, obesity trends in Europe are catching up with the US (in many countries, at least): https://www.obesityevidencehub.org.au/collections/trends/adults-global https://www.obesityevidencehub.org.au/collections/trends/adu...
e40 3y ago
I think it is willpower and the food itself. The food taxes willpower, which is a finite resource, and the food industry is winning. I know the debate between big and small government is endless, but there are some cases of choice removal that are good. The recent headlines that "CA are banning Skittles"[1] are emblematic of the power of the food lobby. They are in no way banning Skittles. They are banning 3 chemicals, 1 of which is banned for putting on your skin but not in your stomach. All are banned in the EU (I believe). Google results for the quoted string above are littered with results that don't say one thing about the truth. [1] https://www.today.com/food/news/california-bill-ab418-skittles-food-containing-chemicals-red3-rcna77016 https://www.today.com/food/news/california-bill-ab418-skittl...
- mmastrac 3y ago
  I don't think you can or should blame willpower here. If the carrying capacity of an environment is finite and you overwhelm it, you blame the stressor, not the capacity. I agree that the industry is too good at setting the narrative and "flooding the zone" in the US, however.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I agree with your point about stress, but I have a more charitable read of GP's post. As someone who has had these kinds of issues in the past, I think it's important to acknowledge the effect food has on "willpower". I wanted to eat less, but some foods made it nigh impossible to stop once I'd started. And I've noticed that they also make you not want to eat anything else, so when you run out, you'll buy the same crap again. This compounds in other areas of life, too: I was a lazy slob because I had no energy to do anything, even though I was consuming massive amounts of calories. So in that light, I think GP very much blames the stressors: the companies overwhelming the willpower.
    - e40 3y ago
      You did a better job of explaining what I meant. Thanks. I have struggled with a sugar addiction my whole life. I've read that sugar is in nearly every packaged food. It's just too hard to avoid, unless you make all your own food from scratch. Also, sugar is everywhere. Trying to avoid it is nearly impossible. People bringing sweets to work, going to the store, bakery (obvious, but sometimes you go to pick up bread), coffee shop, etc. It's literally everywhere. Companies definitely intentionally overwhelm our willpower.
0xEF 3y ago
> I am convinced it's not a problem of willpower, but the food just being engineered to be addictive and overly flavourful at any cost. This is where I'm at with our processed food in the US, and I agree with this as an actual recovering addict (opioids). Massive lucrative businesses have been built on addiction and making things more addictive. We allowed this trend to continue in our culture by voting with our dollars, and I suppose wr could point fingers all day, but I also land back on the question of how do we, as a society, fix it and do better moving forward?
- 14 3y ago
  The world works on money. Socialized health care in Canada so if obesity and related health issues such as diabetes and so many other issues brought on by decreased mobility as seen with obese people costs the system too much money there will be an incentive to change it. We already are starting to see sugar taxes. Corporations and citizens can be taxed more just like cigarettes to help pay for healthcare costs and programs. Subsidies for gym memberships could be offered. Schools could include more health and fitness. Reduce taxes on qualified health foods. And ultimately an attitude shift. We have so many “influencers” promoting extremely obese body types as natural and okay. I would never body shame anyone but let’s get real about things and praise more healthy role models.
steve_adams_86 3y ago
> I am convinced it's not a problem of willpower This is an interesting thought. I agree, but I also agree, in a sense, when people say we need to have more willpower in order to overcome the problem. Yet, I agree with it in the same way I agree I need to have stronger muscles if I want to beat a grizzly bear in a wrestling match. Of course I do. But is it practical or even humanly possible? Not really and almost certainly not. I'm worried that the engineering we're doing to food is essentially that grizzly bear, and we're at a point where it's becoming borderline inhuman to tackle that problem. Humans are not islands, and as individuals, we depend immensely upon the decisions others make around us in order to thrive. At the moment, our food industry expressly undermines our ability to thrive in order to ensure it thrives instead. In terms of health outcomes, it appears to me that some of the best things that can happen to you as a child are a) not being exposed to much sugar, thus not developing much of a taste for it, b) not having access to convenience foods such as fast food, instant meals, to-go items, etc, and c) being introduced and accustomed to whole foods early in life such that they're appealing and gratifying later in life. In North America, we seem to actively work against this happening. I know people have a lot of willpower. We've survived this far because of it. Today we still have as much as our ancestors did, but our attention and energy is so broadly divided and absorbed so intensively. The project of not eating unhealthy food is—bizarrely—an intensive and demanding one for those of us who have been pulled into its grip. To say no to the craving, or to delve into the science of what's harming us and how, or why such delicious food is unhealthy even though so many people insist otherwise, is a serious job in and of itself. Frankly I don't fault anyone for struggling in that battle. So, sure, willpower would help. But most of us are tapped out. We need to reduce the need for willpower at a systemic level. Suggesting otherwise often ignores one's good fortune of not needing that willpower in the first place, or having the opportunity to focus one's willpower for one reason or another. This good fortune is rare for many, many people.
briffle 3y ago
its because to make everything 'low-fat' they reduced flavor, so everything now has sugar added to it.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Low-fat also means no satisfaction. You can eat a ton of rice cakes to no avail. Try a salad with no oil or cheese. Ugh.
scruple 3y ago
> the food just being engineered to be addictive and overly flavourful at any cost. Not only. Highly palatable foods are also designed to bypass and confuse our satiety response so that we consume vastly more of it than we would if we were eating "regular" food.

farseer 3y ago

ahhhh Doritos!

mmastrac 3y ago
Not even once. (too late)

wkat4242 3y ago

Yeah it's difficult, bodyshaming is too much of a thing. Even something as simple as MSG makes you want to eat much more. MSG occurs naturally in some foods but they tended to be really expensive (e.g. highly matured cheeses) so it was not such a big deal. But now it's added to everything.

ska 3y ago
It's true that MSG content in e.g. aged parmesan is high... but it's not so low in e.g. cheddar and people tend to use a lot more of that. Also mushrooms, tomatoes, etc. especially dried. Mainly staying away from too much processed foods helps, but MSG content isnt' the main problem with them, it's a combination of flavoring agents + very high calorie density.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I don't know, it feels like they are engineered. Sometimes I'm not hungry at all but I take a small bowl of potato chips with a movie. Then after that I get a real craving for MORE. And I end up eating the whole bag. It's weird. I don't have it before I start. Maybe other more natural snacks would be better yes but they are just so nice.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  That "cheddar" isn't cheddar. It's probably not even cheese. It's a yellow melting slab. Not a lot of people actually eat real cheddar.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    True, the cheddar I'd use to get in Ireland was very different than the yellow plastic-wrapped slices you get in the supermarket, or the gooey slabs at McDonald's. It was more crumbly and a darker orange colour. Also much stronger taste. They had it in the supermarket but it was not the wrapped-slice stuff but sold in bricks. I'm surprised they're allowed call that stuff Cheddar actually.
  - ska 3y ago
    If I recall correctly, the MSG content in both is not inconsiderable, so this isn't really a counterpoint.

adventured 3y ago

Obesity is a major problem across Europe increasingly [0]. Britain is nearly as obese as the US now for example. Australia and New Zealand have similar obesity problems as the US and Canada. Europe is just catching up to the mistakes the US has made since the 1980s. Some nations are faring better due to their culture (strongly ingrained behaviors) holding back the mistakes, such as eg France. [0] WHO report: Europe can reverse its obesity “epidemic” | https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/03-05-2022-new-who-report--europe-can-reverse-its-obesity--epidemic https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/03-05-2022-new-who-repo... "The report, launched at a press event on 3 May and presented at the European Congress on Obesity, reveals that in the European Region, 59% of adults and almost 1 in 3 children (29% of boys and 27% of girls) are overweight or living with obesity. Obesity prevalence for adults in the European Region is higher than in any other WHO region except for the Americas."

mmastrac 3y ago
While Europe is not immune (and obesity is rising), I suspect the EU will have a much more pro-active attitude towards stemming the rise. It's hard to find data, but America had an early, meteoric rise in obesity starting in the 90s (after a slow rise in the 80s) that I believe is far worse than what Europe saw. Europe is catching up, however, and I imagine there's at least some "americanization" of food to be blamed here.
- nottorp 3y ago
  One little data point. Until like 10 years ago you never got sauces with your food (except fast food), and especially not in your salads here. Now there's a full sauce menu everywhere and I suspect coleslaw defeats the point of having a salad completely.
  - pacaro 3y ago
    Particularly the way coleslaw is presented in the US. You can make a perfectly delicious and healthful coleslaw without mayonnaise or cream (or sugar!) I just looked at the ingredients of a premade coleslaw (Safeway). The second and third ingredients are mayonnaise and sugar respectively.

heyjamesknight 3y ago

Unfortunately, obesity trends in Europe are catching up with the US (in many countries, at least): https://www.obesityevidencehub.org.au/collections/trends/adults-global https://www.obesityevidencehub.org.au/collections/trends/adu...

e40 3y ago

I think it is willpower and the food itself. The food taxes willpower, which is a finite resource, and the food industry is winning. I know the debate between big and small government is endless, but there are some cases of choice removal that are good. The recent headlines that "CA are banning Skittles"[1] are emblematic of the power of the food lobby. They are in no way banning Skittles. They are banning 3 chemicals, 1 of which is banned for putting on your skin but not in your stomach. All are banned in the EU (I believe). Google results for the quoted string above are littered with results that don't say one thing about the truth. [1] https://www.today.com/food/news/california-bill-ab418-skittles-food-containing-chemicals-red3-rcna77016 https://www.today.com/food/news/california-bill-ab418-skittl...

mmastrac 3y ago
I don't think you can or should blame willpower here. If the carrying capacity of an environment is finite and you overwhelm it, you blame the stressor, not the capacity. I agree that the industry is too good at setting the narrative and "flooding the zone" in the US, however.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I agree with your point about stress, but I have a more charitable read of GP's post. As someone who has had these kinds of issues in the past, I think it's important to acknowledge the effect food has on "willpower". I wanted to eat less, but some foods made it nigh impossible to stop once I'd started. And I've noticed that they also make you not want to eat anything else, so when you run out, you'll buy the same crap again. This compounds in other areas of life, too: I was a lazy slob because I had no energy to do anything, even though I was consuming massive amounts of calories. So in that light, I think GP very much blames the stressors: the companies overwhelming the willpower.
  - e40 3y ago
    You did a better job of explaining what I meant. Thanks. I have struggled with a sugar addiction my whole life. I've read that sugar is in nearly every packaged food. It's just too hard to avoid, unless you make all your own food from scratch. Also, sugar is everywhere. Trying to avoid it is nearly impossible. People bringing sweets to work, going to the store, bakery (obvious, but sometimes you go to pick up bread), coffee shop, etc. It's literally everywhere. Companies definitely intentionally overwhelm our willpower.

0xEF 3y ago

> I am convinced it's not a problem of willpower, but the food just being engineered to be addictive and overly flavourful at any cost. This is where I'm at with our processed food in the US, and I agree with this as an actual recovering addict (opioids). Massive lucrative businesses have been built on addiction and making things more addictive. We allowed this trend to continue in our culture by voting with our dollars, and I suppose wr could point fingers all day, but I also land back on the question of how do we, as a society, fix it and do better moving forward?

14 3y ago
The world works on money. Socialized health care in Canada so if obesity and related health issues such as diabetes and so many other issues brought on by decreased mobility as seen with obese people costs the system too much money there will be an incentive to change it. We already are starting to see sugar taxes. Corporations and citizens can be taxed more just like cigarettes to help pay for healthcare costs and programs. Subsidies for gym memberships could be offered. Schools could include more health and fitness. Reduce taxes on qualified health foods. And ultimately an attitude shift. We have so many “influencers” promoting extremely obese body types as natural and okay. I would never body shame anyone but let’s get real about things and praise more healthy role models.

steve_adams_86 3y ago

> I am convinced it's not a problem of willpower This is an interesting thought. I agree, but I also agree, in a sense, when people say we need to have more willpower in order to overcome the problem. Yet, I agree with it in the same way I agree I need to have stronger muscles if I want to beat a grizzly bear in a wrestling match. Of course I do. But is it practical or even humanly possible? Not really and almost certainly not. I'm worried that the engineering we're doing to food is essentially that grizzly bear, and we're at a point where it's becoming borderline inhuman to tackle that problem. Humans are not islands, and as individuals, we depend immensely upon the decisions others make around us in order to thrive. At the moment, our food industry expressly undermines our ability to thrive in order to ensure it thrives instead. In terms of health outcomes, it appears to me that some of the best things that can happen to you as a child are a) not being exposed to much sugar, thus not developing much of a taste for it, b) not having access to convenience foods such as fast food, instant meals, to-go items, etc, and c) being introduced and accustomed to whole foods early in life such that they're appealing and gratifying later in life. In North America, we seem to actively work against this happening. I know people have a lot of willpower. We've survived this far because of it. Today we still have as much as our ancestors did, but our attention and energy is so broadly divided and absorbed so intensively. The project of not eating unhealthy food is—bizarrely—an intensive and demanding one for those of us who have been pulled into its grip. To say no to the craving, or to delve into the science of what's harming us and how, or why such delicious food is unhealthy even though so many people insist otherwise, is a serious job in and of itself. Frankly I don't fault anyone for struggling in that battle. So, sure, willpower would help. But most of us are tapped out. We need to reduce the need for willpower at a systemic level. Suggesting otherwise often ignores one's good fortune of not needing that willpower in the first place, or having the opportunity to focus one's willpower for one reason or another. This good fortune is rare for many, many people.

briffle 3y ago

its because to make everything 'low-fat' they reduced flavor, so everything now has sugar added to it.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Low-fat also means no satisfaction. You can eat a ton of rice cakes to no avail. Try a salad with no oil or cheese. Ugh.

scruple 3y ago

> the food just being engineered to be addictive and overly flavourful at any cost. Not only. Highly palatable foods are also designed to bypass and confuse our satiety response so that we consume vastly more of it than we would if we were eating "regular" food.