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So this authors example of an ideal young systems programmer looking to get hired was one that provided (free!) significant contributions to their Golang client

by nunez 3y ago

So this authors example of an ideal young systems programmer looking to get hired was one that provided (free!) significant contributions to their Golang client, their database and _an academic paper_, presumably over the course of many weeks (months?). I don't disagree with the advice of contributing to open source, but I hope they realize that they are essentially telling readers that contributing unknown amounts of hard, free labor is the best path to getting a job in this subfield of tech. (Meanwhile, the kid who went to Stanford will just apply and probably get an offer if their DS&A chops are fresh enough.) (Also, I'm guessing your contributions don't count at some places if your PR/MRs don't get merged, which is the other gnarly thing about open source that complicates this advice. Big open-source projects tend to have big politics behind them, even if they are all entirely online, like working groups, the release process, general disagreements (which will happen; every contributor is smart, and smart people love friendly debate!), etc.)

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Well you have to show your ~99.9th percentile in some way, somehow, among your cohort to get special notice by any serious group in any field. That's pretty much a tautology for a selective anything.
mattgreenrocks 3y ago
Feels like the trend lately for a lot of white collar jobs is overt gatekeeping. Don’t know if it’s a natural reaction to economic uncertainty or what, but the gatekeepers always seem to insist that everyone should be 100% committed to their job in their off hours. Feels like the no-lifers tend to run the show eventually. And I speak as someone who did exactly that in my 20s, and sometimes regret it.
- cristiancavalli 3y ago
  This. The snarky tone definitely detracts from any sort of well-intended message hiding behind the virtue signaling of “I implemented a binary tree and I bet you couldn’t because you work on ‘frontend’” Good advice to new peeps in the industry: this tone and obviously inflated sense of self is the “smell” you should look out for and avoid.
crabbone 3y ago
This is like saying "if you have a lot of money to throw at the problem, you will likely solve it". The kid who went to Stanford could afford to go there in the first place. A lot of things in life are different for kids like this one, hiring notwithstanding. That kind of "kid" probably won't need to go through the same job application processes as someone who could only afford a community college. Also... comparing time and money investment you'd have to make to get into Stanford to investment you'd have to make to contribute to an opensource project is orders of magnitude not in favor of Stanford. Also, as someone who actually had to hire for system programming jobs -- I wouldn't care about candidate's degree and would be put off if the candidate tried to force the subject. In my experience, there's very little overlap between system programming and college curriculum. So, I wouldn't be so sure the "Stanford kid" is getting a job. College education helps you get into "programmer mills" companies like the big names with large internship / junior education programs. Smaller companies who don't have the capacity to provide on-the-job education, especially in the face of low retention factor wouldn't be interested in hiring Ivy league graduates if graduation from an Ivy league university was the only thing going on for them.
avinassh 3y ago
hey, I am the v from the post. > So this authors example of an ideal young systems programmer looking to get hired was one that provided (free!) significant contributions to their Golang client, their database and _an academic paper_, presumably over the course of many weeks (months?). That's not how I see it! I love databases and open source; libsql seemed right for me. I had no idea (or expectations) I would get hired by doing so. By contributing to open source, I am getting to work on some complex codebases where some brilliant people are helping me with my code in pull requests. Isn’t that awesome? Sure, it may only work for some, and this isn’t the only way to systems programming. It is totally okay if someone wants to take a different path. Instead of focusing on what’s wrong, why not use this opportunity to help and guide others in a similar boat? To rephrase, how would you advise someone like me to change the domain from the backend to systems programming? For someone who doesn’t have experience with systems programming, knowing only Python, and Go professionally. During the (previous) job, I was working on scaling micro services and building web backend. There was zero room for systems related stuff. [0] - https://github.com/avinassh https://github.com/avinassh
- nunez 3y ago
  You contributing isn't a problem! It's awesome that you found a project that speaks to your interests and is fun to contribute to. In fact, I often recommend folks looking to get into tech to do exactly that, or at least have a few side projects they tinker with to demonstrate proficiency and willingness to learn. My complaint here was with the authors using your journey (which you weren't doing expecting to be hired, which is important) as an example of what others should do to get a systems eng job. Honestly, if you already have development experience and want to move into some other subfield, my advice in your general case would be to use your network to get a referral into companies you're interested in or message recruiters offering those jobs indicating your interest.
quickthrower2 3y ago
I am against contributing to open source just to show chops especially if it means contributing to $corp’s repo to try and impress $corp into giving a job. Just contribute (if you want to) to what is fun or gets you curious. As for bang for buck: more applications, more interview question prep > FOSS contributions from a standing start. If you invented clojure or something then that is something else. But you probably didn’t.

by nunez 3y ago

MichaelZuo 3y ago

Well you have to show your ~99.9th percentile in some way, somehow, among your cohort to get special notice by any serious group in any field. That's pretty much a tautology for a selective anything.

mattgreenrocks 3y ago

Feels like the trend lately for a lot of white collar jobs is overt gatekeeping. Don’t know if it’s a natural reaction to economic uncertainty or what, but the gatekeepers always seem to insist that everyone should be 100% committed to their job in their off hours. Feels like the no-lifers tend to run the show eventually. And I speak as someone who did exactly that in my 20s, and sometimes regret it.

cristiancavalli 3y ago
This. The snarky tone definitely detracts from any sort of well-intended message hiding behind the virtue signaling of “I implemented a binary tree and I bet you couldn’t because you work on ‘frontend’” Good advice to new peeps in the industry: this tone and obviously inflated sense of self is the “smell” you should look out for and avoid.

crabbone 3y ago

This is like saying "if you have a lot of money to throw at the problem, you will likely solve it". The kid who went to Stanford could afford to go there in the first place. A lot of things in life are different for kids like this one, hiring notwithstanding. That kind of "kid" probably won't need to go through the same job application processes as someone who could only afford a community college. Also... comparing time and money investment you'd have to make to get into Stanford to investment you'd have to make to contribute to an opensource project is orders of magnitude not in favor of Stanford. Also, as someone who actually had to hire for system programming jobs -- I wouldn't care about candidate's degree and would be put off if the candidate tried to force the subject. In my experience, there's very little overlap between system programming and college curriculum. So, I wouldn't be so sure the "Stanford kid" is getting a job. College education helps you get into "programmer mills" companies like the big names with large internship / junior education programs. Smaller companies who don't have the capacity to provide on-the-job education, especially in the face of low retention factor wouldn't be interested in hiring Ivy league graduates if graduation from an Ivy league university was the only thing going on for them.

avinassh 3y ago

hey, I am the v from the post. > So this authors example of an ideal young systems programmer looking to get hired was one that provided (free!) significant contributions to their Golang client, their database and _an academic paper_, presumably over the course of many weeks (months?). That's not how I see it! I love databases and open source; libsql seemed right for me. I had no idea (or expectations) I would get hired by doing so. By contributing to open source, I am getting to work on some complex codebases where some brilliant people are helping me with my code in pull requests. Isn’t that awesome? Sure, it may only work for some, and this isn’t the only way to systems programming. It is totally okay if someone wants to take a different path. Instead of focusing on what’s wrong, why not use this opportunity to help and guide others in a similar boat? To rephrase, how would you advise someone like me to change the domain from the backend to systems programming? For someone who doesn’t have experience with systems programming, knowing only Python, and Go professionally. During the (previous) job, I was working on scaling micro services and building web backend. There was zero room for systems related stuff. [0] - https://github.com/avinassh https://github.com/avinassh

nunez 3y ago
You contributing isn't a problem! It's awesome that you found a project that speaks to your interests and is fun to contribute to. In fact, I often recommend folks looking to get into tech to do exactly that, or at least have a few side projects they tinker with to demonstrate proficiency and willingness to learn. My complaint here was with the authors using your journey (which you weren't doing expecting to be hired, which is important) as an example of what others should do to get a systems eng job. Honestly, if you already have development experience and want to move into some other subfield, my advice in your general case would be to use your network to get a referral into companies you're interested in or message recruiters offering those jobs indicating your interest.

quickthrower2 3y ago

I am against contributing to open source just to show chops especially if it means contributing to $corp’s repo to try and impress $corp into giving a job. Just contribute (if you want to) to what is fun or gets you curious. As for bang for buck: more applications, more interview question prep > FOSS contributions from a standing start. If you invented clojure or something then that is something else. But you probably didn’t.