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I'm currently in the process of moving my business (one-man show, incorporated LLC doing IT/SW Eng.) out of Germany. The amount of bureaucracy running even the

I'm currently in the process of moving my business (one-man show, incorporated LLC doing IT/SW Eng.) out of Germany. The amount of bureaucracy running even the smallest of companies with no office at all (work out of home) is hilarious. So much you need to get an accountant/tax advisor, but even then they will pass-through a lot of the bureaucracy. I need to put down excel sheets for every day of a business trip I do, mark whether its been longer or shorter than 8 hours, arrival/leave day etc. And double pay attention that the hotel you stayed didn't include breakfast, or at least had it separate on the invoice. If getting a company car, you are in for some real tax hell. On top of that, the accountant charges ~5.000€/year for this single-person business (personal income tax declaration included). And no, it is not just an expensive accountant, as in Germany accountant prices are regulated just as lawyer fees are (they can max. give you 20% discount). Meanwhile, when I talk to my friends in Spain they pay less than 1.000€/year for accounting for an LLC (S.L.) with not even close the bureaucracy. And bear in mind, I'm german and speak the language, but even I struggle to keep up with all tax- and business regulations. On top of that, we have the highest tax load and social insurance is also amongst the top price ranges, while waiting months for a doctors appointment.

wink 3y ago
Hmm, this does not match my experience (but it's been a while). I'm not saying it's been great but maybe it's because I didn't file a single business trip or hotel stay. FWIW I also have to file those now as you described as an employee, so while it's not helping that is not unique to running a business :P
- littlecranky67 3y ago
  You have to file those as an employee just because your employer has to do the same beauraucracy. Sounds in the end you stopped doing business :P There is tons of examples where a solo-enterpreneur is drowned in these regulations (corporate car or even e-bike (!), calculation of privateley used square meter space in the homeoffice, separation of heating cost for your home office etc.). Don't even get me started about the beaurocracy hell if I had employees, there are so many regulations and rules.
  - wink 3y ago
    I think you hit the nail on the head. "Solo person with a laptop" (to exaggerate) has to jump through all the hoops a "proper company" has to do (and shouldn't) - but a proper company with a low amount of people is not much more work. Because that's what I meant, and it didn't feel overly bureaucratic to me.
iiiieu 3y ago
> If getting a company car, you are in for some real tax hell. Only if you want to make use of tax incentives for company cars. It's easy to complain about the downsides and ignore the upside. You can just not put it into your tax declaration, then you don't have trouble. Oh then you don't get the money? > Meanwhile, when I talk to my friends in Spain they pay less than 1.000€/year for accounting for an LLC (S.L.) with not even close the bureaucracy. Their cost of living is likely also a fraction of where you lived in Germany. (I'm guessing a larger city with high cost of living.)
reportgunner 3y ago
If you as a native who speaks the language has a hard time to keeping up with this, how do the foreigners who move to Germany manage? Do they just skip this 5k EUR accountant ?

wink 3y ago

Hmm, this does not match my experience (but it's been a while). I'm not saying it's been great but maybe it's because I didn't file a single business trip or hotel stay. FWIW I also have to file those now as you described as an employee, so while it's not helping that is not unique to running a business :P

littlecranky67 3y ago
You have to file those as an employee just because your employer has to do the same beauraucracy. Sounds in the end you stopped doing business :P There is tons of examples where a solo-enterpreneur is drowned in these regulations (corporate car or even e-bike (!), calculation of privateley used square meter space in the homeoffice, separation of heating cost for your home office etc.). Don't even get me started about the beaurocracy hell if I had employees, there are so many regulations and rules.
- wink 3y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head. "Solo person with a laptop" (to exaggerate) has to jump through all the hoops a "proper company" has to do (and shouldn't) - but a proper company with a low amount of people is not much more work. Because that's what I meant, and it didn't feel overly bureaucratic to me.

iiiieu 3y ago

> If getting a company car, you are in for some real tax hell. Only if you want to make use of tax incentives for company cars. It's easy to complain about the downsides and ignore the upside. You can just not put it into your tax declaration, then you don't have trouble. Oh then you don't get the money? > Meanwhile, when I talk to my friends in Spain they pay less than 1.000€/year for accounting for an LLC (S.L.) with not even close the bureaucracy. Their cost of living is likely also a fraction of where you lived in Germany. (I'm guessing a larger city with high cost of living.)

reportgunner 3y ago

If you as a native who speaks the language has a hard time to keeping up with this, how do the foreigners who move to Germany manage? Do they just skip this 5k EUR accountant ?