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As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany

by bgdam 3y ago

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Every single thing is so obsolete. Nothing is digitized. Everything requires a giant stack of actual paperwork to be taken to an office where the whims of the clerk dictate everything. A million rules exist in the hopes that they cover all possible scenarios, but inevitable they don't and if you happen to have a scenario which is not covered, you're shit out of luck because the clerk is sure as shit not going to put their ass on the line and make a decision not explicitly present in the rule book. You pay through the nose for health insurance, but when you need to find a doctor, none can take you because their quota of public insurance patients is done for the quarter. If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe. And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who naively believe that Germany is a great country to live in because they either don't have these problems, or they know how to work the system and get their results. So there is no voting pressure to get things to change. So long as the omas and opas get their pension, Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view.

skrebbel 3y ago
Great Schnitzel though
wklm 3y ago
Your case is a classic example of sunk cost fallacy
- bgdam 3y ago
  Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.
  - cinntaile 3y ago
    Where will you move afterwards?
  - pluijzer 3y ago
    Sorry, but I hope you can show these countries a little bit more respect than the country that provided you with the ability to get very well paid, got you clean are and safety from crime.
    - bgdam 3y ago
      And this is where the fallacy is. Indian salaries are currently actually higher than German ones for my role. And that's without even accounting for PPP. The ground reality is different from what people assume it is. The base assumption always seems to be "People are moving to our coutnry from 3rd world countries because those 3rd world coutnries are not as good as us." That's totally not the case. There are a multitude of factors and every persons personal individual decisions. And I love how there are multiple comments about disrespecting the country that I moved to. Why? Because I dared to criticize it instead of pretending everything is awesome? Yeah that's cool man. You do know that people criticize because they care and want the system to change for the better right?
    - cinntaile 3y ago
      What is disrespectful about voicing his opinion on things that he considers broken or in need of much improvement? It is entirely possible that German people are too complacent or privileged to see all the issues that he mentions.
ljlolel 3y ago
I was dreading the anmeldung bureacratic process in Berlin and found them to be nice and accommodating and even flexible to me being slightly late and needing to go acquire further documents. My personal experience has been good.
- bgdam 3y ago
  Anmeldung is one very small, very simple thing. Have you been to your Ausländerbehörde yet?
  - junon 3y ago
    Yes, multiple times. The first time was long and annoying because I didn't know about the visa extension laws. The other times were easy, despite being nerveracking.
    - the_common_man 3y ago
      How did you even get appointments? It's impossible to get appointments at Auslandbehörde
      - junon 3y ago
        Check every day at 6am, multiple times per day
        bgdam 3y ago
        How I wish my city would have an open appointment booking system. Instead I get to send an email, and then wait for a response for the next 4-6 months. Thankfully once you get that initial response the rest of the process moves smoothly now that there is an actual person you can talk to directly.
- junon 3y ago
  Mm yes, renovating your house again? No problem!
rowanG077 3y ago
> The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime Those are two things which are pretty far up the list of things I need to be fair.
Semaphor 3y ago
I mean, I don’t have those problems. Without any workarounds being required. What do you want me to do, make up problems and fight against them?
- bgdam 3y ago
  So if you don't face the problem personally you don't voice out against it? You do realize how cause and effect works right? If you don't voice out and change the system this is what happens: 1. More and more immigrants stop coming to Germany. 2. Taxes and Pensions dry up. 3. Already stressed and broken infrastructure can no longer be maintained thanks to lack of funds. 4. Your quality of life (that of the guy who never faces these problems) goes down because you did not speak out and help change the system. But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s.
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    Love people like you, move right towards insulting others. Maybe that’s why you have those issues. Not even going to bother arguing with people like you.
    - bgdam 3y ago
      Sorry where was the insulting? You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you, and I pointed out how things you don't think personally affect you will eventually affect you.
      - Semaphor 3y ago
        > But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s. You are right, I also forget adding strawmen. > You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you Didn’t say that either, but that fits with my image of you.
romanovcode 3y ago
> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe. You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year and you get all the helicopters and 3-d printed tooth fillings. The only problem is that you can get back to public only if you get fired. > Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live It's not Germans who foolishly believe these things, but all the immigrants who come to Germany over and over each year. If there were not so much immigration then the services for exams would be 1 week instead of 5 months. > So long as the omas and opas get their pension, Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely.
- littlecranky67 3y ago
  > I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely. But there is not way out of the government mandated pension unless you become self-employed. So you do have to pay into the giant ponzi scheme, while also building your own private funds.
- littlecranky67 3y ago
  > You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year Good luck if you are married and have children, or good beware, prior health conditions. Then private will cost you waaay more than public
  - romanovcode 3y ago
    With prior health conditions they won't even accept you 9 times out of 10. But honestly it's not a great deal to begin with. To clarify why it's tricky: I was going to private long time ago and they asked me if I have some conditions. I said I have mild scoliosis and whatever and they said "No, not like that - like HIV/AIDS or Cancer" and I said No. Some time later they said I cheated them because I did not say I have "Nasal Septum Deviation" which is whatever for me, and it is not even close to having cancer or HIV. Basically they increased my premium by ~300 EUR because of that. So be careful, make sure you say EVERYTHING that might be wrong with you beforehand to not have surprises like I had. Of course the upside is that: - Nobody cares if you cannot speak German - You get appointments next day regardless of what condition you have - You go to hospital there is special counter for you sometimes where you skip line completely - You get best healthcare in all Europe (I think)
rockyj 3y ago
That is just your experience. You say as if things in India are all bed of roses. No major city in India (forget small towns) can boast of breathable air, manageable traffic, potable water from the tap or 24 hours of electricity. Women's safety - lol. Finding a place where there is a clean lake or some non-polluted piece of nature - forget that in North India. Not to mention as a minority, who knows when you can be lynched or arrested for stating your opinion. People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Also, please show some respect to the country you live in.
- bgdam 3y ago
  > People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk of the developing world? Unless you're a refugee from a war torn land, they are not doing that. They don't want you here. Case in point - the new immigration reform allows you to bring your parents on FRV only if you're coming here on a high paying blue card job. So if your goal is to explicitly attract these kinds of privileged individuals, then it's pointless to get pissed off when they speak from their position of privilege. > Also, please show some respect to the country you live in. So what, I should kow tow to a broken system and praise it? No thanks. People and countries should be able to take criticism. Also, just because I complain about everything that is bad doesn't mean that there is nothing good. It's just that none of them apply to a thread about Germany's dire immigration situation.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    sounds like you miss your servants which happen to be a little too expensive for you here ... and you even have to treat them respectful. what a bummer
    - 3y ago
2-718-281-828 3y ago
everybody who ever stepped a foot into india knows this is nonsense. even you know that which is why you didn't leave to somewhere else.
sony22 3y ago
I am not a german but from India. while there is lack of digitialisation but most things work fine > So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Seriously then leave the country. > Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. You are attacking Germans. - Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly. - I know vast majority of Indians think bureaucracy works like India - Assuming you are from wealthy background or software or doctor etc. They expect minimal paperwork and want the German bureaucrats to skip things. Why? because they are entitled. - The rules are very clearly laid out. Too often people from India fill up forms like <I dont give a shit. I am invited to work in your country. So give me visa attitude> - If you complain so much about German bureaucrats try to get your passport or any documents (like attestation) from Indian Consulate/Embassy. Unless you have power/connections etc. they delay it EVEN when you give all papers. Look all the ridiculous docx or PDF with one small line for complete address in embassy website. More over if you dont speak Hindi it is PITA. > he vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable They don't. But remember many things in Germany are designed for EVERYONE. Incl. non smartphone users. - Look at Indian railway system: If you have coding skill all tickets are booked by these people. And people that wait for booking in counters are left NO with no seats on the first day of booking availablity. Is this happening? - Data protection. Sure in India: you dont care and upload any document by whatsapp etc. We dont. - Language: it is painful. But why not learn? (Given the fact Govt of India wants Southern people to learn Hindi - why dont you learn German) > health insurance, but I call BS. How many helicopters are available for you in India for the €100 - €200 you pay in Germany. Do you know the number of celebrities from Bollywood that came to Germany to get COVID vaccine (Yes, I am in this field).
- wink 3y ago
  >> Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. > You are attacking Germans. I don't think so and I don't feel attacked. The problem is that German politics has been VERY conservative for the last decades and also in general, the population seems very much averse to change. The younger people (younger than 50, lol) are not usually in a position of power, and maybe even in the majority not open to tech. (Look at the pixelated houses discussions with street view) I'm still amazed sometimes that we can even have things like online banking or that SOME chores at government offices work digitally, it's just not happening and everything they try to do sucks anyway. Anything digital Germany absolutely feels like a weird place fixated on the good old days and another problem is that every time some progress is on the horizon someone misinterprets data protection and privacy laws again and manages to sabotage progress. Or it's people who want to go the extra mile and instead of fighting so that we are allowed to bay with a card everywhere want to completely abolish coins and paper money... So in that regard I absolutely agree with the post you replied to. The majority or the people in power don't want this to change it seems, or are too incompetent.
wink 3y ago
> And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago). My point being that we're not talking everyday things. Also not sure how long you've been here, before covid I could usually get one of these appointments in the next few weeks, like.. 2 or 3, which I found pretty reasonable. (just checked online, next available appointments are Tue-Fri next week). It was really bad in 2020-2022. So maybe it depends on your city and the exact document you need to have renewed. I'm not saying this is a great country with low bureaucracy or that we're downplaying anything per se - but I've never heard a foreign national coworker complain that much, so maybe my town was just better at this all the time?
- bgdam 3y ago
  > I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago). Exactly. This is precisely my point. Germans don't realize that there are such big problems for immigrants because they don't go through any of it. And immigrants can't vote, and those who can vote don't face the problem so then problem never gets fixed.
  - wink 3y ago
    Well, you originally put this as your talking point, more of a general rant how everything sucks, and then we should assume that your pain points with immigration are the main point. I just found https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28347/umfrage/zuwanderung-nach-deutschland/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28347/umfrage... - which looks like a big jump (e.g. comparing to France https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/461789/umfrage/migrationssaldo-nach-einwanderungen-und-auswanderungen-fuer-frankreich/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/461789/umfrag... ) In a perfect world I'd assume this would be fixed slowly as this seems to be a recent trend, but I'm not hopeful. Also I'm pretty sure there's currently no way to vote in any election that would make any process more digital and faster and less bureaucratic, so while that doesn't help you, you're not missing anything here. (Yes, the FDP and Lindner especially have ran their campaign on some pipe dreams but my personal opinion can be summed up with: lol.) Fixing this needs a general shift of thinking first, then the stuff that is only relevant to 3% of the population (also maybe in their first few years, so even less?) will follow.
hannofcart 3y ago
> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe. Hi, I'm likely in the top 10% of top 1% of salaried professionals in India. I'd like to know where in India I'd be able to get the kind of insurance you're talking about. If it's not hyperbole, I'd love to move there. So far, I've found no insurance that's as generous as you describe. Not even close.
iiiieu 3y ago
> As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), Public services cost money. Relative to contributions to society (if you compare to the lady in the supermarket or the immigrant guy cleaning the toilets), SWE pay is what is obnoxiously high. Sure the paperwork and bureaucracy is annoying. But India isn't exactly known for shining in this regard. At least the corruption in the public sector is magnitudes less in Germany compared to India. Things may be slow, but not because you didn't pay up, but because they are just ... slow. The slowness has advantages too. The right wing guys will have a harder time taking over because everything is so slow. (Fingers crossed) > German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, It's a "shit show" because you need to wait for a while for your language exam results? Your priorities are odd. There are a few thousand things higher up on my personal priority list. What about corruption? Environment? Safety? Health care? Pension? Child care? Just sitting in a street café having a latte, reading a book, watching birds sing and kids play near by, all in central Berlin, all while being safe, breathing clean air and not hearing a 7-lane highway? > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. So, why is this bad then? A society that is happy with how things work, that's the dream state, right? If you immigrated there and don't like it, well, you seem to be in the minority. Perhaps choose a place that's more to your liking then. (I'm neither a citizen nor a resident in Germany.)
babaguru 3y ago
I'm an immigrant in India. There is curry everywhere. Everybody eats it, everybody smells like it. I hate curry. The smell, the taste, I could vomit every time. But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Indians think this is all acceptable and okay. If I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.
- iiiieu 3y ago
  Considering the downvotes, you probably forgot the "/s".
  - bgdam 3y ago
    Even with the /s it's a paltry attempt at belittling real issues. I didn't complain that Germany was full of beer and everybody ate bread and the smell of bakeries was suffocating.
glimshe 3y ago
I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live. By the way, I have many friends from South America who moved to Europe just to move back a couple of years later with stories very similar to what you are saying.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live. This topic is about Germany. Moreover you're replying to an Indian who moved to Germany...
dhruvrajvanshi 3y ago
I'm also an Indian guy working in Germany paying "obnoxiously high taxes", and my experience has been quite different. > The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime - Easy access to parks - Good public transport (I used to live in Delhi, and it has an okay metro connectivity, but nowhere close to what even smaller German cities have). - Traffic. I liked living in India, but holy shit, the traffic is the worst. - It's a whole lot quieter which I really care about. I can hear birds chirping right now very close to Berlin's city center. - Lots of activities to do if you're young. - I know people complain about beauraucracy here, but I would be very surprised if India handles incoming migrant cases really smoothly either. > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live in because they either don't have these problems, or they know how to work the system and get their results. Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points. It's not only rosy for me either. - Cellphone coverage and mobile data is strangely expensive here for reasons I don't understand. - Finding appartments is really difficult. But it's a problem that all big cities in Europe face. I wish some of my taxes would go towards making affordable mass housing. - It's hard to learn a new language as an adult (not really the fault of Germans). You definitely run into German fairly often, websites, talking to cashiers, etc. P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch. Yes, in India your taxes max out at 30% percent (roughly), which isn't nothing but you don't get much value out of it. In Germany, it maxes out at 45% but it pays for good quality education for everyone.
- bgdam 3y ago
  There are a lot of things you don't get in big cities in India, which you can easily get if you're in a small town or a village. Parks, trafic, quiet are all part of that. That said, there are indeed a lot more things that are in general better in Germany than in India, and this rant of mine was the result of a year of frustrated dealings with German bureaucracy (not that that makes any of the points I raised invalid though). > Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points. Actually, whenever I've had in person conversations with Germans, after they get to the point where they realize that immigrants don't have the same experience as they do, they quickly accept that there should be change. However, the vast majority needs to understand this and push for it. Otherwise there is zero political will to fix these things. And the large majority don't have a friendly neighbourhood immigrant who will sit and tell them all the problems they face. > P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch. If you are single, you get zero benefits out of the system and are just paying into a pot you cannot touch. So yes it's obnoxiously high when you consider you don't see much benefits from it. I do understand the social nature of contributions, but that doesn't make my wallet hurt any less whenever I receive my paycheck. I didn't include the things you listed as problems because these are there in any country you would want to move to (except maybe cheap/better mobile internet). It's okay to have to learn German - it's the language of the country I chose to live in, and it is in some ways a much more logical language than English . Housing crisis exists pretty much everywhere. Again can't see any political will anywhere to change this - which surprises me as this is something that arguably impacts Germans more than immigrants.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
> Nothing is digitized. That's not true. But it depends very strong on the City and task to which degree something is digitized. The problems are federation and privacy-laws, which exist for historical reasons. Basically, every city is doing their own thing, and sharing of data has been made hard for public services for a long time. Germany is moving away from this, but because of the big clusterfuck of everything, it takes a while, and not everyone moves at the same speed. And things have become better fast in the last years, because of the pandemia. So it might be already very different from when you made your experiences. > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. Nobody thinks that, but most process the normal citizen encounter, are fast and people know how to avoid the problems. This is a more general problem of Germany, that many things depends on you having the necessary knowledge and experience about the system to get things done fast. > If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country Those are often parodies, German humor. The stupid dry level to say, but overall they just joke about the attitude of Germany and its rules. And overall, Germany is in fact not a bad country to live, there are far worse countries, like North Korea, Russia, parts of Ukraine, parts of USA.. At least people have Beer and Döner.
- the_common_man 3y ago
  A bit rough to expect highly skilled labor to move to a country saying it's better than north korea and Russia. I guess the bar is that low eh
  - bgdam 3y ago
    Best to read that entire last line about German humor
Gud 3y ago
Thanks for sharing. I read the replies to your informative post. Sorry to see so much racism directed your way. I’m a resident in Switzerland and my girlfriend is from south India, now also a resident there. This has not at all been our experience. The administration has been surprisingly pleasant and efficient. From the day we applied for her residence to the day she got it took about 6 weeks. Would have been quicker if we did everything right.
- laserdancepony 3y ago
  To disagree is also racism now, how insightful.
  - Gud 3y ago
    No, it wasn’t disagreement with his statements that made me call out the racism - it was the assumptions about his character because of his race. FWIW since I made my reply there has been a lot of thoughtful replies
laserdancepony 3y ago
If you were so highly qualified as you say, you‘d know about the sunken cost fallacy. So get out of Germany and move somewhere else you are happy.
0xDEF 3y ago
>Every single thing is so obsolete. Nothing is digitized. Everything requires a giant stack of actual paperwork to be taken to an office where the whims of the clerk dictate everything. A million rules exist in the hopes that they cover all possible scenarios, but inevitable they don't and if you happen to have a scenario which is not covered, you're shit out of luck because the clerk is sure as shit not going to put their ass on the line and make a decision not explicitly present in the rule book. >You pay through the nose for health insurance, but when you need to find a doctor, none can take you because their quota of public insurance patients is done for the quarter. Just a reminder to anyone reading this: These are Germany-specific problems that don't exist in other Northern European countries like Denmark.

by bgdam 3y ago

skrebbel 3y ago

Great Schnitzel though

wklm 3y ago

Your case is a classic example of sunk cost fallacy

bgdam 3y ago
Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.
- cinntaile 3y ago
  Where will you move afterwards?
- pluijzer 3y ago
  Sorry, but I hope you can show these countries a little bit more respect than the country that provided you with the ability to get very well paid, got you clean are and safety from crime.
  - bgdam 3y ago
    And this is where the fallacy is. Indian salaries are currently actually higher than German ones for my role. And that's without even accounting for PPP. The ground reality is different from what people assume it is. The base assumption always seems to be "People are moving to our coutnry from 3rd world countries because those 3rd world coutnries are not as good as us." That's totally not the case. There are a multitude of factors and every persons personal individual decisions. And I love how there are multiple comments about disrespecting the country that I moved to. Why? Because I dared to criticize it instead of pretending everything is awesome? Yeah that's cool man. You do know that people criticize because they care and want the system to change for the better right?
  - cinntaile 3y ago
    What is disrespectful about voicing his opinion on things that he considers broken or in need of much improvement? It is entirely possible that German people are too complacent or privileged to see all the issues that he mentions.

ljlolel 3y ago

I was dreading the anmeldung bureacratic process in Berlin and found them to be nice and accommodating and even flexible to me being slightly late and needing to go acquire further documents. My personal experience has been good.

bgdam 3y ago
Anmeldung is one very small, very simple thing. Have you been to your Ausländerbehörde yet?
- junon 3y ago
  Yes, multiple times. The first time was long and annoying because I didn't know about the visa extension laws. The other times were easy, despite being nerveracking.
  - the_common_man 3y ago
    How did you even get appointments? It's impossible to get appointments at Auslandbehörde
    - junon 3y ago
      Check every day at 6am, multiple times per day
      - bgdam 3y ago
        How I wish my city would have an open appointment booking system. Instead I get to send an email, and then wait for a response for the next 4-6 months. Thankfully once you get that initial response the rest of the process moves smoothly now that there is an actual person you can talk to directly.
junon 3y ago
Mm yes, renovating your house again? No problem!

rowanG077 3y ago

> The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime Those are two things which are pretty far up the list of things I need to be fair.

Semaphor 3y ago

I mean, I don’t have those problems. Without any workarounds being required. What do you want me to do, make up problems and fight against them?

bgdam 3y ago
So if you don't face the problem personally you don't voice out against it? You do realize how cause and effect works right? If you don't voice out and change the system this is what happens: 1. More and more immigrants stop coming to Germany. 2. Taxes and Pensions dry up. 3. Already stressed and broken infrastructure can no longer be maintained thanks to lack of funds. 4. Your quality of life (that of the guy who never faces these problems) goes down because you did not speak out and help change the system. But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s.
- Semaphor 3y ago
  Love people like you, move right towards insulting others. Maybe that’s why you have those issues. Not even going to bother arguing with people like you.
  - bgdam 3y ago
    Sorry where was the insulting? You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you, and I pointed out how things you don't think personally affect you will eventually affect you.
    - Semaphor 3y ago
      > But yes, by all means be typisch Deutsch and stick your head in the sand. Let's see how that helps when the car manufacturing industry is long gone and Germany is the Greece of the 2030s. You are right, I also forget adding strawmen. > You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you Didn’t say that either, but that fits with my image of you.

romanovcode 3y ago

> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe. You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year and you get all the helicopters and 3-d printed tooth fillings. The only problem is that you can get back to public only if you get fired. > Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live It's not Germans who foolishly believe these things, but all the immigrants who come to Germany over and over each year. If there were not so much immigration then the services for exams would be 1 week instead of 5 months. > So long as the omas and opas get their pension, Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely.

littlecranky67 3y ago
> I strongly advise anyone who moves to Germany to start private pension scheme immediately because in 30 years there will be no pension in Germany, most likely. But there is not way out of the government mandated pension unless you become self-employed. So you do have to pay into the giant ponzi scheme, while also building your own private funds.
littlecranky67 3y ago
> You are free to go private if you earn more than 60k a year Good luck if you are married and have children, or good beware, prior health conditions. Then private will cost you waaay more than public
- romanovcode 3y ago
  With prior health conditions they won't even accept you 9 times out of 10. But honestly it's not a great deal to begin with. To clarify why it's tricky: I was going to private long time ago and they asked me if I have some conditions. I said I have mild scoliosis and whatever and they said "No, not like that - like HIV/AIDS or Cancer" and I said No. Some time later they said I cheated them because I did not say I have "Nasal Septum Deviation" which is whatever for me, and it is not even close to having cancer or HIV. Basically they increased my premium by ~300 EUR because of that. So be careful, make sure you say EVERYTHING that might be wrong with you beforehand to not have surprises like I had. Of course the upside is that: - Nobody cares if you cannot speak German - You get appointments next day regardless of what condition you have - You go to hospital there is special counter for you sometimes where you skip line completely - You get best healthcare in all Europe (I think)

rockyj 3y ago

That is just your experience. You say as if things in India are all bed of roses. No major city in India (forget small towns) can boast of breathable air, manageable traffic, potable water from the tap or 24 hours of electricity. Women's safety - lol. Finding a place where there is a clean lake or some non-polluted piece of nature - forget that in North India. Not to mention as a minority, who knows when you can be lynched or arrested for stating your opinion. People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Also, please show some respect to the country you live in.

bgdam 3y ago
> People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk of the developing world? Unless you're a refugee from a war torn land, they are not doing that. They don't want you here. Case in point - the new immigration reform allows you to bring your parents on FRV only if you're coming here on a high paying blue card job. So if your goal is to explicitly attract these kinds of privileged individuals, then it's pointless to get pissed off when they speak from their position of privilege. > Also, please show some respect to the country you live in. So what, I should kow tow to a broken system and praise it? No thanks. People and countries should be able to take criticism. Also, just because I complain about everything that is bad doesn't mean that there is nothing good. It's just that none of them apply to a thread about Germany's dire immigration situation.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  sounds like you miss your servants which happen to be a little too expensive for you here ... and you even have to treat them respectful. what a bummer
  - 3y ago

2-718-281-828 3y ago

everybody who ever stepped a foot into india knows this is nonsense. even you know that which is why you didn't leave to somewhere else.

sony22 3y ago

I am not a german but from India. while there is lack of digitialisation but most things work fine > So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Seriously then leave the country. > Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. You are attacking Germans. - Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly. - I know vast majority of Indians think bureaucracy works like India - Assuming you are from wealthy background or software or doctor etc. They expect minimal paperwork and want the German bureaucrats to skip things. Why? because they are entitled. - The rules are very clearly laid out. Too often people from India fill up forms like <I dont give a shit. I am invited to work in your country. So give me visa attitude> - If you complain so much about German bureaucrats try to get your passport or any documents (like attestation) from Indian Consulate/Embassy. Unless you have power/connections etc. they delay it EVEN when you give all papers. Look all the ridiculous docx or PDF with one small line for complete address in embassy website. More over if you dont speak Hindi it is PITA. > he vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable They don't. But remember many things in Germany are designed for EVERYONE. Incl. non smartphone users. - Look at Indian railway system: If you have coding skill all tickets are booked by these people. And people that wait for booking in counters are left NO with no seats on the first day of booking availablity. Is this happening? - Data protection. Sure in India: you dont care and upload any document by whatsapp etc. We dont. - Language: it is painful. But why not learn? (Given the fact Govt of India wants Southern people to learn Hindi - why dont you learn German) > health insurance, but I call BS. How many helicopters are available for you in India for the €100 - €200 you pay in Germany. Do you know the number of celebrities from Bollywood that came to Germany to get COVID vaccine (Yes, I am in this field).

wink 3y ago
>> Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. > You are attacking Germans. I don't think so and I don't feel attacked. The problem is that German politics has been VERY conservative for the last decades and also in general, the population seems very much averse to change. The younger people (younger than 50, lol) are not usually in a position of power, and maybe even in the majority not open to tech. (Look at the pixelated houses discussions with street view) I'm still amazed sometimes that we can even have things like online banking or that SOME chores at government offices work digitally, it's just not happening and everything they try to do sucks anyway. Anything digital Germany absolutely feels like a weird place fixated on the good old days and another problem is that every time some progress is on the horizon someone misinterprets data protection and privacy laws again and manages to sabotage progress. Or it's people who want to go the extra mile and instead of fighting so that we are allowed to bay with a card everywhere want to completely abolish coins and paper money... So in that regard I absolutely agree with the post you replied to. The majority or the people in power don't want this to change it seems, or are too incompetent.

wink 3y ago

> And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago). My point being that we're not talking everyday things. Also not sure how long you've been here, before covid I could usually get one of these appointments in the next few weeks, like.. 2 or 3, which I found pretty reasonable. (just checked online, next available appointments are Tue-Fri next week). It was really bad in 2020-2022. So maybe it depends on your city and the exact document you need to have renewed. I'm not saying this is a great country with low bureaucracy or that we're downplaying anything per se - but I've never heard a foreign national coworker complain that much, so maybe my town was just better at this all the time?

bgdam 3y ago
> I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago). Exactly. This is precisely my point. Germans don't realize that there are such big problems for immigrants because they don't go through any of it. And immigrants can't vote, and those who can vote don't face the problem so then problem never gets fixed.
- wink 3y ago
  Well, you originally put this as your talking point, more of a general rant how everything sucks, and then we should assume that your pain points with immigration are the main point. I just found https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28347/umfrage/zuwanderung-nach-deutschland/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28347/umfrage... - which looks like a big jump (e.g. comparing to France https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/461789/umfrage/migrationssaldo-nach-einwanderungen-und-auswanderungen-fuer-frankreich/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/461789/umfrag... ) In a perfect world I'd assume this would be fixed slowly as this seems to be a recent trend, but I'm not hopeful. Also I'm pretty sure there's currently no way to vote in any election that would make any process more digital and faster and less bureaucratic, so while that doesn't help you, you're not missing anything here. (Yes, the FDP and Lindner especially have ran their campaign on some pipe dreams but my personal opinion can be summed up with: lol.) Fixing this needs a general shift of thinking first, then the stuff that is only relevant to 3% of the population (also maybe in their first few years, so even less?) will follow.

hannofcart 3y ago

> If I paid the same amount in insurance in India, I'd have a helicopter flown out every time I stubbed my toe. Hi, I'm likely in the top 10% of top 1% of salaried professionals in India. I'd like to know where in India I'd be able to get the kind of insurance you're talking about. If it's not hyperbole, I'd love to move there. So far, I've found no insurance that's as generous as you describe. Not even close.

iiiieu 3y ago

> As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), Public services cost money. Relative to contributions to society (if you compare to the lady in the supermarket or the immigrant guy cleaning the toilets), SWE pay is what is obnoxiously high. Sure the paperwork and bureaucracy is annoying. But India isn't exactly known for shining in this regard. At least the corruption in the public sector is magnitudes less in Germany compared to India. Things may be slow, but not because you didn't pay up, but because they are just ... slow. The slowness has advantages too. The right wing guys will have a harder time taking over because everything is so slow. (Fingers crossed) > German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, It's a "shit show" because you need to wait for a while for your language exam results? Your priorities are odd. There are a few thousand things higher up on my personal priority list. What about corruption? Environment? Safety? Health care? Pension? Child care? Just sitting in a street café having a latte, reading a book, watching birds sing and kids play near by, all in central Berlin, all while being safe, breathing clean air and not hearing a 7-lane highway? > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. So, why is this bad then? A society that is happy with how things work, that's the dream state, right? If you immigrated there and don't like it, well, you seem to be in the minority. Perhaps choose a place that's more to your liking then. (I'm neither a citizen nor a resident in Germany.)

babaguru 3y ago

I'm an immigrant in India. There is curry everywhere. Everybody eats it, everybody smells like it. I hate curry. The smell, the taste, I could vomit every time. But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Indians think this is all acceptable and okay. If I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

iiiieu 3y ago
Considering the downvotes, you probably forgot the "/s".
- bgdam 3y ago
  Even with the /s it's a paltry attempt at belittling real issues. I didn't complain that Germany was full of beer and everybody ate bread and the smell of bakeries was suffocating.

glimshe 3y ago

I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live. By the way, I have many friends from South America who moved to Europe just to move back a couple of years later with stories very similar to what you are saying.

avgcorrection 3y ago
> I live in the US and every other day I see a HN thread saying how America is terrible and how Europe is so much better than here. At the same time, you also see a lot more Europeans coming to the US than the other way around. The reality is that no place is perfect, the grass is always greener on the other side and the US, despite its problems, is a pretty darn good place to live. This topic is about Germany. Moreover you're replying to an Indian who moved to Germany...

dhruvrajvanshi 3y ago

I'm also an Indian guy working in Germany paying "obnoxiously high taxes", and my experience has been quite different. > The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime - Easy access to parks - Good public transport (I used to live in Delhi, and it has an okay metro connectivity, but nowhere close to what even smaller German cities have). - Traffic. I liked living in India, but holy shit, the traffic is the worst. - It's a whole lot quieter which I really care about. I can hear birds chirping right now very close to Berlin's city center. - Lots of activities to do if you're young. - I know people complain about beauraucracy here, but I would be very surprised if India handles incoming migrant cases really smoothly either. > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live in because they either don't have these problems, or they know how to work the system and get their results. Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points. It's not only rosy for me either. - Cellphone coverage and mobile data is strangely expensive here for reasons I don't understand. - Finding appartments is really difficult. But it's a problem that all big cities in Europe face. I wish some of my taxes would go towards making affordable mass housing. - It's hard to learn a new language as an adult (not really the fault of Germans). You definitely run into German fairly often, websites, talking to cashiers, etc. P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch. Yes, in India your taxes max out at 30% percent (roughly), which isn't nothing but you don't get much value out of it. In Germany, it maxes out at 45% but it pays for good quality education for everyone.

bgdam 3y ago
There are a lot of things you don't get in big cities in India, which you can easily get if you're in a small town or a village. Parks, trafic, quiet are all part of that. That said, there are indeed a lot more things that are in general better in Germany than in India, and this rant of mine was the result of a year of frustrated dealings with German bureaucracy (not that that makes any of the points I raised invalid though). > Maybe it wasn't what you said, but how you said it. I'm judging based on your tone in this post. If you're this rude to people, expect them to dismiss your opinion even if you're making valid points. Actually, whenever I've had in person conversations with Germans, after they get to the point where they realize that immigrants don't have the same experience as they do, they quickly accept that there should be change. However, the vast majority needs to understand this and push for it. Otherwise there is zero political will to fix these things. And the large majority don't have a friendly neighbourhood immigrant who will sit and tell them all the problems they face. > P.S. Obnoxiously high is a stretch. If you are single, you get zero benefits out of the system and are just paying into a pot you cannot touch. So yes it's obnoxiously high when you consider you don't see much benefits from it. I do understand the social nature of contributions, but that doesn't make my wallet hurt any less whenever I receive my paycheck. I didn't include the things you listed as problems because these are there in any country you would want to move to (except maybe cheap/better mobile internet). It's okay to have to learn German - it's the language of the country I chose to live in, and it is in some ways a much more logical language than English . Housing crisis exists pretty much everywhere. Again can't see any political will anywhere to change this - which surprises me as this is something that arguably impacts Germans more than immigrants.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

> Nothing is digitized. That's not true. But it depends very strong on the City and task to which degree something is digitized. The problems are federation and privacy-laws, which exist for historical reasons. Basically, every city is doing their own thing, and sharing of data has been made hard for public services for a long time. Germany is moving away from this, but because of the big clusterfuck of everything, it takes a while, and not everyone moves at the same speed. And things have become better fast in the last years, because of the pandemia. So it might be already very different from when you made your experiences. > But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay. Nobody thinks that, but most process the normal citizen encounter, are fast and people know how to avoid the problems. This is a more general problem of Germany, that many things depends on you having the necessary knowledge and experience about the system to get things done fast. > If you go to the /r/germany or /r/de subreddits, any thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country Those are often parodies, German humor. The stupid dry level to say, but overall they just joke about the attitude of Germany and its rules. And overall, Germany is in fact not a bad country to live, there are far worse countries, like North Korea, Russia, parts of Ukraine, parts of USA.. At least people have Beer and Döner.

the_common_man 3y ago
A bit rough to expect highly skilled labor to move to a country saying it's better than north korea and Russia. I guess the bar is that low eh
- bgdam 3y ago
  Best to read that entire last line about German humor

Gud 3y ago

Thanks for sharing. I read the replies to your informative post. Sorry to see so much racism directed your way. I’m a resident in Switzerland and my girlfriend is from south India, now also a resident there. This has not at all been our experience. The administration has been surprisingly pleasant and efficient. From the day we applied for her residence to the day she got it took about 6 weeks. Would have been quicker if we did everything right.

laserdancepony 3y ago
To disagree is also racism now, how insightful.
- Gud 3y ago
  No, it wasn’t disagreement with his statements that made me call out the racism - it was the assumptions about his character because of his race. FWIW since I made my reply there has been a lot of thoughtful replies

laserdancepony 3y ago

If you were so highly qualified as you say, you‘d know about the sunken cost fallacy. So get out of Germany and move somewhere else you are happy.

0xDEF 3y ago

>Every single thing is so obsolete. Nothing is digitized. Everything requires a giant stack of actual paperwork to be taken to an office where the whims of the clerk dictate everything. A million rules exist in the hopes that they cover all possible scenarios, but inevitable they don't and if you happen to have a scenario which is not covered, you're shit out of luck because the clerk is sure as shit not going to put their ass on the line and make a decision not explicitly present in the rule book. >You pay through the nose for health insurance, but when you need to find a doctor, none can take you because their quota of public insurance patients is done for the quarter. Just a reminder to anyone reading this: These are Germany-specific problems that don't exist in other Northern European countries like Denmark.