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> Germany has liberalised its immigration rules, but the visa process is still glacial and the system favours refugees over professionals who might want to sett

> Germany has liberalised its immigration rules, but the visa process is still glacial and the system favours refugees over professionals who might want to settle in the country. A big issue for professionals to move is they have to learn German.

wageslave99 3y ago
I've always thought about having simple dialects of languages: limited vocabulary, only three tenses, no declinations (in the languages they have, i.e. German) and only regular verbs (in the languages they have, i.e. Spanish). Would it be possible?
- eastbound 3y ago
  Isn’t English this language? The past exists but the future barely doesn’t, there are no declinations, every noun can also be a verb. However, you have to learn every combination of “t”, “ght”, “i”, “ou” mixed up together.
  - wageslave99 3y ago
    English has its own issues. It is not phonetic and there is no official pronunciation. It also has inconsistencies like using auxiliar verbs to negate (I do not think this vs I think not this). However, maybe a standardised pronunciation and the removal of some issues could make Neo-English a good and interesting language.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  You've more or less described how and why English became the lingua franca of the modern era. English can be used for basic communication satisfactorily with only a passing understanding of the language.
  - wageslave99 3y ago
    English has many issues (non-phonetic, auxiliar verbs, big lexicon, etc.) I was aiming for a kind of artificial language with a natural language foundations.
- bux93 3y ago
  The EU has a framework, CEFR, that describes language levels of proficiency, starting at A1, and ending in C2. A1 requires you to be able to understand simple phrases about everyday, concrete topics. For example, suggest activities based on the weather forecast. C2 is essentially fluency. This outdated overview (2009) shows that most European countries only require A1/A2 for residency, and for citizenship B1 or B2 at most. https://rm.coe.int/16802fc1d9 https://rm.coe.int/16802fc1d9
- silverpepsi 3y ago
  You're writing this tongue in cheek or really not knowing? That's exactly what Indonesian is , a simplified standardized language to allow hundreds of different ethnicities with their own languages to easily communicate. There are tons more but I guess Indonesian is the world's best example because it is the language of one the most populated island on earth and one of the most populus nations And there's no need for three tenses, neither Chinese nor Indonesian have tenses.
  - wageslave99 3y ago
    I mean European languages, in the context of internal migration inside EU. I don't know anything about Indonesian so, it's nice to know my idea is not a crazy one. If Chinese and Indonesian do not have tenses, how they communicate when the action happens?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - silverpepsi 3y ago
      Just put a time adverbial like last year today tomorrow later "in a bit". :)
- lproven 3y ago
  This is an excellent idea, and goes beyond my own speculations in this area. I like it a lot.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  I guess these become pidgins when they arise organically. Not a native language for anyone but a bridge language.
jeroenvlek 3y ago
Agree in principle, but younger people do speak English a lot better and in cities like Berlin or Hamburg it's an even lower barrier.
- the_common_man 3y ago
  These are not the people you meet in public sector and services
  - jeroenvlek 3y ago
    True, but I don't think the Kartoffelparty phenomenon will ever fully disappear ;)
emsy 3y ago
I’d argue you can get by with English in any bigger city and most higher ed jobs.
nicbou 3y ago
Not really. It's possible to earn a living as an English speaker. The biggest issues are housing and the horrendously slow immigration office. Bureaucracy in general is so slow that some people give up and leave. Employers can't wait 4 months for employees to get the permission to start working. Employees get tired of waiting for weeks for every little piece of paper. It's infuriating.
2-718-281-828 3y ago
not true. i know lots of people who came here to work and none of them speaks german beyond mere basics if at all. as a matter of fact all of them explain that this is because you get by well on english.
- fhd2 3y ago
  As a German with an expat partner, I'd say this depends very much. If you're working for consumer facing startups - sure. There's tons of those in Berlin and plenty in the other big cities (Germany is quite decentral). But if you want to settle a bit on the outskirts of even the big cities, it is a lot easier to understand at least some. I'd say 50% of the people we randomly interact with can hold a conversation in English. And then there's work: There's a lot of good paying and rewarding tech jobs here that would seem foreign to SV types, in very specific domains or more traditional B2B. Getting a job at those places without speaking German is surely possible for a programmer, just a minor handicap maybe. But for other professions, it can be downright impossible.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    there is no non english speaking country in the world where you could expect that to be easier.
    - the_common_man 3y ago
      You are missing the point. Are other countrkes expecting professionals to move and help them out?
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        stay here for a year. then go visit your home country india and then read again what you write here. won't have aged well. almost everybody coming to germany complains about all sorts of stuff. after about a year they can't leave anymore.
prisoner3986 3y ago
Uh hu big thing. Hint: if you want to live in a different country, you should at least try to somewhat adapt the official language spoken, and also somewhat have a sweet spot for its culture. Otherwise, you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that. As someone else complained beforehand: the public health system is already strained, the influx of illegals, refugees and other immigrants didn't help the situation - what where people expecting?
- danwee 3y ago
  > Otherwise, you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that. You sure about that? For example, there's nothing better for a country like Germany to have an inmigrant who has: - got a bacherlo/masters degree in a different country other than Germany - has a job in a German company and earns well above the average German citizen - pays tons of taxes - is relatively young (between 20 and 50 years old), so doesn't get to use the health care as much as others Besides, European countries are getting old (the 'population pyramid' is getting inverted) so they definitely need young people that work (and it doesn't even really matter if they are skilled people or not; what's needed is people in the age of working and who can spend some of their earnings in the country)
  - mhroth 3y ago
    All true. But they don't need people showing up just to gripe and complain.
    - DocTomoe 3y ago
      Oh, griping and complaining are favourite German pastimes. A foreigner who has those two down already is halfway integrated and about to get citizenship.
    - thecopy 3y ago
      But they are not just griping and complaining. They are also working, contributing to the culture, and paying taxes. They are a part of the society, and their perspective should not be ignored, disrespected and ridiculed like it is by so many in this thread.
danwee 3y ago
At least from my experience, the biggest issue is finding a decent place to live. With this I mean: - if you don't speak German, then chances are you want to live in the big cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne,...) where some fraction of the population speak English... but in those cities there's a huge demand for flats and the offer is not up to it. Also, just by not speaking German you cut probably 50% of the flat offers already because they are offered by people who don't speak English - if you just moved to Germany and you're applying to a flat, chances are they will ask you your last 3 payslips (this is not a law, but if they ask and you don't provide, well goodbye!)
- soco 3y ago
  Finding a flat even in Madrid if you're not speaking Spanish is almost impossible. Thus it can be worse, especially when you just landed in the new country. Some companies help their fresh employees with this to different extents but it's not a rule so the success rate will vary.
cjrp 3y ago
Is there any citation in the original article for the claim that it favours refugees? It's paywalled for me.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
Depends on the job and region you will live. If you speak English, you can work it out in big cities with little to know knowledge about German language. But overall, needing to learn the local language is generally true for every country which does not speak your native language. So It's not like Germany is a big exception here.
wink 3y ago
Yeah it sucks, I basically only know programmers who can get by living here without speaking German. But honestly, in which countries is that really different? The only ones I remember stories about would be the Netherlands and Sweden, but also only if you're living in a big city and not in a small town. Obviously I'm leaving out the countries where their main language is English already and assuming you speak English. And Spain if you come from a Spanish-speaking country, and France if you come from a French-speaking country... but overall I just think that this is the default?
mertbio 3y ago
This is not true. You don't have to learn German if you can find a company that uses English for their day-to-day work. There are a lot of them. Also, as a professional, in the big cities like Berlin and Hamburg, there is a different immigration centre and they process your paperwork way faster.
- the_common_man 3y ago
  I mean there is life beyond work. Finding apartments, doctor appointments, shcools is all a nightmare without knowing German. Public schools is berlin have no teachers
romanovcode 3y ago
Would you expect someone to live well in Silicon Valley only speaking Mandarin? I don't understand this question.

wageslave99 3y ago

I've always thought about having simple dialects of languages: limited vocabulary, only three tenses, no declinations (in the languages they have, i.e. German) and only regular verbs (in the languages they have, i.e. Spanish). Would it be possible?

eastbound 3y ago
Isn’t English this language? The past exists but the future barely doesn’t, there are no declinations, every noun can also be a verb. However, you have to learn every combination of “t”, “ght”, “i”, “ou” mixed up together.
- wageslave99 3y ago
  English has its own issues. It is not phonetic and there is no official pronunciation. It also has inconsistencies like using auxiliar verbs to negate (I do not think this vs I think not this). However, maybe a standardised pronunciation and the removal of some issues could make Neo-English a good and interesting language.
Dalewyn 3y ago
You've more or less described how and why English became the lingua franca of the modern era. English can be used for basic communication satisfactorily with only a passing understanding of the language.
- wageslave99 3y ago
  English has many issues (non-phonetic, auxiliar verbs, big lexicon, etc.) I was aiming for a kind of artificial language with a natural language foundations.
bux93 3y ago
The EU has a framework, CEFR, that describes language levels of proficiency, starting at A1, and ending in C2. A1 requires you to be able to understand simple phrases about everyday, concrete topics. For example, suggest activities based on the weather forecast. C2 is essentially fluency. This outdated overview (2009) shows that most European countries only require A1/A2 for residency, and for citizenship B1 or B2 at most. https://rm.coe.int/16802fc1d9 https://rm.coe.int/16802fc1d9
silverpepsi 3y ago
You're writing this tongue in cheek or really not knowing? That's exactly what Indonesian is , a simplified standardized language to allow hundreds of different ethnicities with their own languages to easily communicate. There are tons more but I guess Indonesian is the world's best example because it is the language of one the most populated island on earth and one of the most populus nations And there's no need for three tenses, neither Chinese nor Indonesian have tenses.
- wageslave99 3y ago
  I mean European languages, in the context of internal migration inside EU. I don't know anything about Indonesian so, it's nice to know my idea is not a crazy one. If Chinese and Indonesian do not have tenses, how they communicate when the action happens?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - silverpepsi 3y ago
    Just put a time adverbial like last year today tomorrow later "in a bit". :)
lproven 3y ago
This is an excellent idea, and goes beyond my own speculations in this area. I like it a lot.
avgcorrection 3y ago
I guess these become pidgins when they arise organically. Not a native language for anyone but a bridge language.

jeroenvlek 3y ago

Agree in principle, but younger people do speak English a lot better and in cities like Berlin or Hamburg it's an even lower barrier.

the_common_man 3y ago
These are not the people you meet in public sector and services
- jeroenvlek 3y ago
  True, but I don't think the Kartoffelparty phenomenon will ever fully disappear ;)

emsy 3y ago

I’d argue you can get by with English in any bigger city and most higher ed jobs.

nicbou 3y ago

Not really. It's possible to earn a living as an English speaker. The biggest issues are housing and the horrendously slow immigration office. Bureaucracy in general is so slow that some people give up and leave. Employers can't wait 4 months for employees to get the permission to start working. Employees get tired of waiting for weeks for every little piece of paper. It's infuriating.

2-718-281-828 3y ago

not true. i know lots of people who came here to work and none of them speaks german beyond mere basics if at all. as a matter of fact all of them explain that this is because you get by well on english.

fhd2 3y ago
As a German with an expat partner, I'd say this depends very much. If you're working for consumer facing startups - sure. There's tons of those in Berlin and plenty in the other big cities (Germany is quite decentral). But if you want to settle a bit on the outskirts of even the big cities, it is a lot easier to understand at least some. I'd say 50% of the people we randomly interact with can hold a conversation in English. And then there's work: There's a lot of good paying and rewarding tech jobs here that would seem foreign to SV types, in very specific domains or more traditional B2B. Getting a job at those places without speaking German is surely possible for a programmer, just a minor handicap maybe. But for other professions, it can be downright impossible.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  there is no non english speaking country in the world where you could expect that to be easier.
  - the_common_man 3y ago
    You are missing the point. Are other countrkes expecting professionals to move and help them out?
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      stay here for a year. then go visit your home country india and then read again what you write here. won't have aged well. almost everybody coming to germany complains about all sorts of stuff. after about a year they can't leave anymore.

prisoner3986 3y ago

Uh hu big thing. Hint: if you want to live in a different country, you should at least try to somewhat adapt the official language spoken, and also somewhat have a sweet spot for its culture. Otherwise, you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that. As someone else complained beforehand: the public health system is already strained, the influx of illegals, refugees and other immigrants didn't help the situation - what where people expecting?

danwee 3y ago
> Otherwise, you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that. You sure about that? For example, there's nothing better for a country like Germany to have an inmigrant who has: - got a bacherlo/masters degree in a different country other than Germany - has a job in a German company and earns well above the average German citizen - pays tons of taxes - is relatively young (between 20 and 50 years old), so doesn't get to use the health care as much as others Besides, European countries are getting old (the 'population pyramid' is getting inverted) so they definitely need young people that work (and it doesn't even really matter if they are skilled people or not; what's needed is people in the age of working and who can spend some of their earnings in the country)
- mhroth 3y ago
  All true. But they don't need people showing up just to gripe and complain.
  - DocTomoe 3y ago
    Oh, griping and complaining are favourite German pastimes. A foreigner who has those two down already is halfway integrated and about to get citizenship.
  - thecopy 3y ago
    But they are not just griping and complaining. They are also working, contributing to the culture, and paying taxes. They are a part of the society, and their perspective should not be ignored, disrespected and ridiculed like it is by so many in this thread.

danwee 3y ago

At least from my experience, the biggest issue is finding a decent place to live. With this I mean: - if you don't speak German, then chances are you want to live in the big cities (Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Frankfurt, Cologne,...) where some fraction of the population speak English... but in those cities there's a huge demand for flats and the offer is not up to it. Also, just by not speaking German you cut probably 50% of the flat offers already because they are offered by people who don't speak English - if you just moved to Germany and you're applying to a flat, chances are they will ask you your last 3 payslips (this is not a law, but if they ask and you don't provide, well goodbye!)

soco 3y ago
Finding a flat even in Madrid if you're not speaking Spanish is almost impossible. Thus it can be worse, especially when you just landed in the new country. Some companies help their fresh employees with this to different extents but it's not a rule so the success rate will vary.

cjrp 3y ago

Is there any citation in the original article for the claim that it favours refugees? It's paywalled for me.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

Depends on the job and region you will live. If you speak English, you can work it out in big cities with little to know knowledge about German language. But overall, needing to learn the local language is generally true for every country which does not speak your native language. So It's not like Germany is a big exception here.

wink 3y ago

Yeah it sucks, I basically only know programmers who can get by living here without speaking German. But honestly, in which countries is that really different? The only ones I remember stories about would be the Netherlands and Sweden, but also only if you're living in a big city and not in a small town. Obviously I'm leaving out the countries where their main language is English already and assuming you speak English. And Spain if you come from a Spanish-speaking country, and France if you come from a French-speaking country... but overall I just think that this is the default?

mertbio 3y ago

This is not true. You don't have to learn German if you can find a company that uses English for their day-to-day work. There are a lot of them. Also, as a professional, in the big cities like Berlin and Hamburg, there is a different immigration centre and they process your paperwork way faster.

the_common_man 3y ago
I mean there is life beyond work. Finding apartments, doctor appointments, shcools is all a nightmare without knowing German. Public schools is berlin have no teachers

romanovcode 3y ago

Would you expect someone to live well in Silicon Valley only speaking Mandarin? I don't understand this question.