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ProtonMail Complied with 5,957 Data Requests in 2022 – Still Secure and Private?
- runnerup 3y agoEdit: removed some statements for legal reasons. Bottom line is that too many weird unexpected things are still happening to peoples emails and attachments. ProtonMail isn’t helping themselves when their communication is “just upload your private key to our servers and then everything will work great again because we can sign your emails with your key for you! But don’t worry, we don’t have access to keys. We just use them to sign emails after it’s uploaded to our servers. The key we don’t have access to after it’s uploaded to our servers. That we then use to sign emails with forevermore.” ProtonMail’s communication needs to be a lot more clear on these issues, they need a dumb docs page or slideshow or YouTube video that address all the concerns in a super concise way that can be linked when these concerns come up. And especially they need a warrant canary that says “we’ve never handed a government the contents of a private accounts emails or the metadata for when/whom they sent/received emails from”. —————————- Definitely not[0]. Black market sellers are often kicked off protonmail for “illegal activity”. LavaBit was probably the last “secure” email provider, they got an NSL for Edward Snowden and chose to fold up the entire company rather than carry out the orders in the NSL. CounterMail may deserve an honorable mention, but you’d likely want all parties that you need to communicate securely with to also have a countermail account and it’s invite-only. P.S. I would love an invite if anyone has one: HNrunnerup@protonmail.com 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36639530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36639530
- psychphysic 3y agoIt's a shame because it would seem to be easy to make protonmail but low hanging fruit fixed. Similarly it seems relatively easy for signal to move away from needing a phone number. I don't know how good Session and Simplex are.
- booi 3y agoThat isn't really fair. If you read the article, protonmail essentially supplied the FBI the recovery email of the account. This is metadata that protonmail must have that isn't encrypted by the user for obvious reasons. Regarding the "MITM" for every email sent, this is related to their "bridge" software which allows regular IMAP/SMTP software to use Proton Mail. This software must edit the emails to encrypt them in their scheme. This software is open source and can be inspected and/or built locally. https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-bridge https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-bridge
- m00dy 3y agono one can ever know Protonmail is really encrypting mails. Opensourcing a piece of software doesn't really mean that Protonmail deployed that and also doesn't really mean that you are using their promised encryption.
- aydyn 3y agoSurely they could have an audit/attestation by 3rd party?
- bayindirh 3y agoYes, but did they?
- tephra 3y agoYes https://proton.me/blog/security-audit https://proton.me/blog/security-audit
- oneTbrain23 3y agoWorldcom passed audit I recalled. Enron too. FTC gave Bernie approval. How about FTX? Remember once uoon a time there was big 5 with one of them as Aurther Andersen? Did anyone auditted Securitum? And oh yeah did anyone actually verified what is being auditted and what is not? When so many info about a compromised Protonmail to law enforcers that Proton didnt even actively deny, I give Securitum as much confidence as AA 2 decade ago.
- illiac786 3y agoIn your logic it seems impossible to be considered secure, since audits do not matter. Which email service do you consider secure and why?
- booi 3y agoyou can also build it yourself
- WithinReason 3y agoDo you have any proof that they store all the keys to emails? Because in none of the cited cases did they provide email contents to law enforcement, only data that you know is not encrypted, like recovery email.
- protonmail 3y agoYour encryption key is stored encrypted so that we have no access to it. It is decrypted when you enter your password, which we have no access to. The article above confirms that, in fact, and all of these cases are proof that our encryption cannot be bypassed by legal means. All the data stored encrypted on our servers (email content, calendars, attachments, etc.) is inaccessible to us: https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption. All we can provide is the unencrypted metadata which we need to have access to in order for the services to work properly.
- doublerabbit 3y ago> However, after receiving the email, we encrypt it immediately using the Proton Mail account owner’s public encryption key. Email contents could still be siphoned, copied and shipped before the encryption process starts. How can you clarify that does not occur between then and that?
- INGSOCIALITE 3y agoWell they double pinky promise, of course
- protonmail 3y agoFor emails between Proton Mail users, it's end-to-end encrypted, meaning the encryption happens client side before the message even reaches the Proton server. If a message is coming from Gmail, then of course that cannot be encrypted until it reaches the server, unless of course the Gmail user is using PGP, which Proton Mail is interoperable with.
- illiac786 3y ago
- KarlTheCool 3y agoAh, I tried to boot up my old account but it looks like it's been deleted from being in the free tier too long. I cancelled my subscription after they had a nearly week long downtime.
- pepa65 3y agoMine has been in the free tier forever, never use it, and it is still fine.
- arghwhat 3y agoHmm? Trusting their client aside (a huge issue with any secure service), I do seem to remember the key being used client-side with password-protection, i.e. not accessible to their server. Am I misremembering something? The part that is easier to misunderstand is encryption-at-rest, where normal emails are still readable at ingress before they are encrypted with an appropriate public key. Also, secure and private != willing and capable of hosting illegal activity. They can kick suspicious behavior without having to read your emails.
- protonmail 3y agoYes your encryption key is stored encrypted so that we have no access to it. It is decrypted when you enter your password, which we have no access to. The article above confirms that, in fact, and all of these cases are proof that our encryption cannot be bypassed by legal means. All the data stored encrypted on our servers (email content, calendars, attachments, etc.) is inaccessible to us: https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption. All we can provide is the unencrypted metadata which we need to have access to in order for the services to work properly.
- svacko 3y agoI think Tutanota [0] is also worth mentioning with their transparent reports and warrant canary in place 0: https://tutanota.com/blog/transparency-report/ https://tutanota.com/blog/transparency-report/
- safety1st 3y agoI mean, what are people's expectations here? If you're sensible, you don't sign up for Proton Mail believing that the FBI will never be able to read your email. You sign up with the expectation that Proton Mail will follow the laws of Switzerland and only disclose information when they must do so under Swiss law. What more do you want from them?
- CodeTheInternet 3y agoI use it expecting they will not sell my data to third parties or use it for things like AI training. I'd expect Google, Microsoft, etc to do this.
- protonmail 3y agoDo you know how Proton Mail actually works? Encryption keys are encrypted client side so Proton never has access to your private key, just an encrypted copy that cannot be decrypted server side.
- ImJamal 3y agoI might be missing something, but how are the keys decrypted? Isn't it using the password? I assume the passwords are hashed on the server, but how would we know if you are storing the nonhashed password when we log in?
- protonmail 3y agoProton Mail is open source, anybody can review the code to see that that clearly is not the case.
- ImJamal 3y agoI haven't reviewed all the code, but my question would be related to the back end which I can't find the source for. Even if the back end is open source we wouldn't know if that is the same code on the servers.
- illiac786 3y agoYou're asking for a negative proof. How do you want an email provider to demonstrate they are not storing your nonhashed password? I don't see how that's feasible. Audits are a step in that direction, but it's not like mathematical proof.
- HeckFeck 3y agoThey also have a few annoying bugs and missing features: - Does not use the email notification sound on iOS - Cannot open iCal attachments in the system Calendar on iOS - this is infuriating! - Proton Calendar itself doesn't support shared calendars, despite being advertised as 'for business'. Almost every business needs a calendar that multiple people can modify. Aside from that I've been generally satisfied, but the problems mean I can't recommend Proton for a business.
- xinayder 3y agoBesides the fact that once you create your account you are automatically subscribed to their newsletter and you have to manually opt out of it once your account is created. I grew tired of receiving marketing emails from them and I didn't remember opting in to receiving those BS emails.
- protonmail 3y agoThank you for your feedback! Note that shared calendars are supported: https://proton.me/support/share-calendar-with-proton-users https://proton.me/support/share-calendar-with-proton-users. Currently, only Proton users can edit the calendars, though. The other two suggestions have been passed to our team internally.
- mindracer 3y agoRegardless of whether they’re secure or private they have to comply with data request. They’re not outside of the law Edit: of course if they kept minimal logs & user information would help when law enforcement came knocking. Can’t give what you don’t have
- parker_mountain 3y agoUnfortunately, their model isn't resistant to these requests as it should be. You either build your model to be resistant to a data request (user controlled keys that never leave the device), or you don't even come to the table.
- candiodari 3y agoThis is fundamentally incompatible with software updates. The keys must not just never leave the device, both the key distribution and what the software does with decrypted data must be locked as well. Which means it must be impossible for the software to update, as the government could use force to compel a company to hack it's own users. This means that the cloud model, where code is downloaded through a web browser, is right out. Regardless of where the keys are.
- runnerup 3y ago> as the government could use force to compel a company to hack it's own users. Currently, in the USA, the most generally accepted view among legal scholars is that this is not legal for the government to do -- mainly because of a view that it's a particular form of compelled speech / forced labor which is unconstitutional for the government to compel. It is, however, an avenue that the law enforcement community does occasionally investigate as a possible route to get what they want. There's no clear court ruling as no cases have gone that far.
- erinnh 3y agoThats currently the case, isnt it? All the encryption/decryption happens locally (inside your browser/client). Thats why, if you want to full text search in proton you have to download your complete history into your browser.
- josephg 3y agoI got into a discussion at IETF with some people over email security a few years ago. The reality is, email was invented in the 70s. It’s missing all the modern messaging related crypto innovations (E2E security, signing, encryption, otr messaging, etc). And there’s very little interest amongst the big email providers in overhauling email to add these features. Even if some niche email providers have good security, if the person you’re communicating with uses gmail or something you’re still screwed. If you want a communications system that’s safe from government snooping, don’t use email. Stick to signal or maybe WhatsApp. Or if you must, self host. At least then the court order to see your server will come to you.
- WithinReason 3y agoProtonmail is perfectly safe (for now) as long as you use it through Tor (https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7ozyd.onion/ https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7...) or a VPN so they don't log your IP and don't provide real recovery information.
- super256 3y agoHave you tried registering an account on proton via Tor? I get a prompt to verify my phone number or give them a recovery mail (trash mailers are blocked) 99% of the time.
- zhfliz 3y agoit might have changed recently but i have previously created accounts by providing trash mailer addresses during creation.
- bharathyes 3y agodo they not verify the recovery email before account activation? how do you not provide a real recovery mail?
- m00dy 3y ago
- hknmtt 3y agoarticle says that "All businesses must comply with the laws in the countries where they are legally based.", right after listing requests from usa and france that the company accepted and cooperated. what a joke this company is. i can use pgp with any provider. don't need to be sold a piece of hot steaming shit and told it's a chocolate cake.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoI don't think the Swiss will want to piss off either France or the USA on these issues. I also see that ProtonMail is headquartered in Geneva, about 2km from the French border... which I suspect means that a fair number of employees commute from France on a daily basis...
- frontalier 3y ago> employees commute from France What does this imply?
- VK538FY 3y agoMaybe a reference to Hervé Falciani? I find the comment pertinent, no offence to you Frontalier. You can thank guys like Falciani if lots of bank jobs in Switzerland also require residence in Switzerland now.
- eloisant 3y agoCountries have agreements between them, and Protonmail only complied to French requests when the French government did the right process in a Swiss court. In other words Protonmail had to comply to respect the Swiss law. Not sure what happened with the US, but US is a bit special because they have extraterritorial laws (i.e. laws that apply everywhere in the world) and the means to enforce it. Because the USD is used as an international money, and the US position in the world, if the US wants to punish you they'll find a way even if you're based outside US.
- 3y ago
- yosito 3y agoI've come to the conclusion that email will never be secure. I've settled for keeping my email data out of the hands of banks and advertisers by using Fastmail, and wildcard aliases. If I were doing any kind of journalism, politics or security sensitive work (I'm not), I would rely on solutions that are built on a foundation of end to end encryption like Signal. I try to use Signal as much as possible not because I'm discussing sensitive things, but just because I want more people to use it so that it's mainstream and using it doesn't automatically become a suspicious activity.
- arthur_sav 3y agoTo be fair, it's unrealistic to think these services will fight the government. The problem is the law the the out of control governments.
- RandomGerm4n 3y agoWhy does Proton store IP addresses in the first place? If they didn't have them, they couldn't give them out. Same with the recovery email. They should write a warning next to it, so that you can then decide for yourself whether a recovery email is advantageous or harmful for your own threat model.
- Logxnx 3y agoTrue for the IP addresses They do have a feature for access logs to your account though. Maybe its because of that?
- protonmail 3y agoThis feature is off by default, and if you enable authentication logging for your Account or voluntarily participate in Proton's advanced security program, the record of your login IP addresses is kept for as long as the feature is enabled. However, the IP logs from before the feature is turned on and from after it is disabled are not kept.
- protonmail 3y agoMost of this metadata is kept only temporarily, including IP addresses, which you can read more about in our Threat model (https://proton.me/blog/protonmail-threat-model https://proton.me/blog/protonmail-threat-model ), Privacy Policy ( https://proton.me/legal/privacy https://proton.me/legal/privacy ) an this article (https://proton.me/blog/enhancing-protection-information-for-activists https://proton.me/blog/enhancing-protection-information-for-... ). By default, we don't retain IP addresses permanently. Your signup (account creation) IP address is temporarily kept for abuse-prevention purposes, and can be retained indefinitely if your account is found to be engaged in activities that breach our terms and conditions (spamming, DDoS attacks against our infrastructure, brute force attacks, etc). The legal basis of this processing is our legitimate interest to protect our Services against nefarious activities. If your threat model includes anonymity, we recommend that you follow the advice shared at the end of the Restore Privacy article above. For the majority of users, it's better to have a recovery email on their account, as the risk of losing their password is higher than the risk of being targeted by a legal request. However, even in those cases you can have both, by setting up a new email address which you don't use for anything else as a recovery email.
- cpach 3y agoCompare to https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/
- snotrockets 3y agoIf you need security or privacy, there's an app for that™, and it ain't email. Email wasn't designed to be such, and trying to workaround the design to make it, is fragile and error prone, with multiple opsec pitfalls, it's practically impossible long term.
- FrenchDevRemote 3y agoIf you refuse to share IP addresses with police or other gov services, you're essentially running a clandestine services, which Protonmail is not. But they can't share actual data if everything is encrypted.
- 8organicbits 3y agoWe've got to get better at securing email, and I've been really impressed with protonmail (not currently using them myself though). Consider Gmail, they send 20% of outbound email as clear text and 4% inbound is unencrypted[1]. Of the encrypted email, it's unclear how much actually validates DNSSEC/DANE or a trustworthy CA and refuses to send when these are missing. Encryption on email is generally about as secure as using http:// http:// for 20% of your web browsing and ignoring certificate errors when you use https:// https://. We tolerate it because email clients generally don't warn end users when this happens and there's not much we can do without harming delivery. Worrying about legally compelled metadata sharing misses the larger context email operates in. [1] https://transparencyreport.google.com/safer-email/overview?hl=en https://transparencyreport.google.com/safer-email/overview?h...
- _8j50 3y agoWth! Proton provides privacy not bulletproof email hosting! If the government is investigating a crime, of course proton will comply! Does the writer of the article even consider who the audience if the "opsec" section are? Unless i am missing something about swiss law, that section is advicing criminals who wish to evade the law.
- ang_cire 3y agoAny actual privacy must be equally efficacious to lawful and unlawful users, as being able to discern between them inherently indicates leaked data. I use Proton, and the metadata they do keep unencrypted would only be useful to LE/feds if some other source (ISP, IXP, OS, etc) has given up info, which you certainly can't blame Proton for. The article is bad for trying to insinuate that responding to warrants indicates failed security, when the reality is that what you respond with is what matters, and in this case it appears to be metadata only. Warrant canaries are useless in any jurisdiction that partners with foreign police and courts. At that point, you need an "unencrypted content sharing canary".
- excusemyfrench 3y agoAnother question I have is: "If governments have nothing to hide (apparently we don’t so they shouldn’t, no ? They said to me they are my equal and truthful protectors), shouldn’t they be legally obligated to warn users when their data/info have been requested by any entity ?"
- protonmail 3y agoThere is indeed an obligation to notify under Swiss law.
- nullc 3y agoAnother member in the long tradition of swiss cryptography? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG
- protonmail 3y agoThere is no comparison between Crypto AG and us. Our encryption occurs client-side, our crypto code is open source (https://proton.me/blog/openpgpjs-3-release https://proton.me/blog/openpgpjs-3-release), and our tech can and has been independently verified. The cases mentioned in the article above actually confirm that our encryption works as advertised and cannot be bypassed by legal means - we are not able to share any content stored encrypted on our servers, because we don't have access to it.
- botanical 3y agoA bit of a tangent, but one thing that annoys me is I get at a minimum 3 spam emails a week in my inbox. That hasn't improved for the past 5 years that I had it.
- pepa65 3y agoInteresting, after many years, I've gotten none. (I've also never given out my email address...)
- illiac786 3y agoThe amount of people commenting here that protonmail's privacy or security is insufficient without even having read up on their security model and/or without the slightest understanding of encryption is staggering. What's happening? I'm sincerely curious, I'd like to understand why protonmail is getting so much hate on HN, is it they are getting too mainstream?...