5 ms·

> Say “please” and “thank you” a lot. I remember a previous role the team leaders all went on a management training course. Everyone came back and started addi

> Say “please” and “thank you” a lot. I remember a previous role the team leaders all went on a management training course. Everyone came back and started adding "please" to every request. I found it really patronising and felt like I was being spoken to like a 5 year old. > "Can you run the SQL update in prod?" Vs > "Can you run the SQL update in prod please?" The "please" sounds like an exasperated parent that is fed up giving the instruction. I'm also starting to get really sick of emojis everywhere. I don't think they added to this article at all. I hope it's just a temporary fad we are going through and this isn't the future of written communication.

winternewt 3y ago
When people use a lot of emojis, the story in my head is that they care more about keeping appearances up than about honesty and transparency. It's fake positivity.
- felurx 3y ago
  Then tell them that! Give them the feedback they need so they can know how to communicate with you better. (Talking about person-to-person relationships, of course) In the end, this is a matter of taste. Just because something works for someone, it doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. But also: Just because something fails to work for someone, it doesn't mean that it will fail to work fo everyone.
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  I like to use emojis when they allow me to get denser content, especially if it's to be printed to a TTY. As long as there's a key somewhere, reducing var names to a single character allows you to pack in a lot more information, while simultaneously being far more expressive than eg "i", "j", "k". It gives you the benefits of columnar data without requiring scrolling back to see headers or even requiring that the columns be perfectly evenly spaced.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  I disagree. I feel there are certain "styles" of emoji use. I don't know if I can explain it well. for example ive worked with people who are really good communicators who use things like sunglasses emoji or muscle emoji to make you actually feel good and keep concise clear communication. But people who make some big long official announcement then pepper it with random emojis to make it more "fun" can be extremely offputting. There are appropriate times to put them but you gotta anticipate how your audience is likely to feel and use them to show you're communicating in good faith, and if you're communicating in bad faith, just don't use them at all, we can all tell. Also the choice and timing of emojis can be good or bad. Honestly I think it literally comes down to a culture difference between hr types and engineers
- watwut 3y ago
  I usually imagine they hang around people who use emojis a lot. No reason to get offended over someone growing up in slightly different culture.
arketyp 3y ago
Yeah. This is good advice and all but it's no use if embraced only by behavior on a superficial level. Then it's just cosmetic and can be quite vile at worst, like seeing guys repeat pick-up artist tricks.
byteware 3y ago
yes, coworkers thanking me for a bugfix or a feature bothers the hell out of me. man I am not doing it for you, I am doing it for money that is thanks enough
- politelemon 3y ago
  That isn't the same thing. Your efforts can still be appreciated as it will have had had a positive impact on them. They're merely expressing it, which is something people do. After all, if everyone assumed the attitude in your last sentence, it would make for a highly unpleasant environment overall and make work a lot more stressful.
- brightlancer 3y ago
  > yes, coworkers thanking me for a bugfix or a feature bothers the hell out of me. man I am not doing it for you, I am doing it for money that is thanks enough And they're thanking you for doing something that will keep them employed. I had a customer one time like you. I was talking with her on the phone and I was phrasing requests (as I often did) as "would you do this for me?" "I'm not doing this for you, I'm doing this for my boss," she repeatedly responded, while repeatedly ignoring my directions. Accept the expression of gratitude, even if your inner narcissism doesn't want you to.
  - byteware 3y ago
    not like I am vocalizing this damn, that would be effed up, I am just silently feeling this way then respond and act according to the expected norms
jstarfish 3y ago
Bioshock gave me the idea, but I find "would you kindly..." goes over a lot better.
- klibertp 3y ago
  ...aren't you afraid someone will take a golf club and hit you with it? Honestly, the fear of saying this phrase to someone who just happened to play Bioshock and saw Ryan's monologue is enough for me to never-ever use it. I don't know how I'd react if I heard it directed at me, but I'm 99% sure I'd - at the very, very least - say "No, I would not" and go away. There's a fine line between "formative" and "traumatic" and I'm really not sure on which side that playthrough falls, even 15 years later.
lodovic 3y ago
I'm just hearing Bill Lumbergh.. "Yeah if you could just go ahead and run that SQL query .. that would be great"
denkmoon 3y ago
Never went on a management course and never been a manager, I always say please and thankyou. It's polite. Sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about it though.
- wink 3y ago
  I think there is no hard rule. Some people say that all the time, some never. Some have a friendly tone and don't need it, but if they add it suddenly it can appear like mentioned. No one said you should stop and I'm pretty sure it won't annoy people if it comes naturally. It's the same as when sales people talk to me and intersperse "Well, Mr. wink, you know about this great offer, that will benefit you, Mr. wink, very much. As I said earlier, Mr. wink." - makes me want to end the call right at the 2nd mention.
- chownie 3y ago
  Being patronising comes naturally to some people, don't worry about it too much.
- dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
  >It's polite. Sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about it though. I would tell you to cut that shit out, if you dealt with me in person. I really would.
  - denkmoon 3y ago
    Which would be quite impolite, tough fella. The nice thing about working in a professional environment is that I don't have to cater to your desires, I simply have to be polite and professional :)
    - msm_ 3y ago
      I can't figure out if you're patronising on purpose, or genuinely polite. FWIW I suspect it's the later, and your sorrys and smiles are meant to soften the blow. But I guess that highlights the issue - it's sometimes hard to distinguish between the two, especially when the other side (like me) is used to a more direct communication.
uoaei 3y ago
Yeah if it's just tacked on at the end it may come across as manipulative. There's better ways to rephrase it that is less patronizing, such as: "Please run the SQL update in prod and notify me when it's complete."
paganel 3y ago
It depends on the culture. Come to Eastern Europe (and I guess to other similar cultures, South America maybe?) and see how far you can go without saying "please" or "thank you". Not that far, I can tell you that. Even though things are beginning to change for the worst in tech world, but, then again, many of the tech people in here see themselves as North-Westerners who happened to be born in the wrong place.
raxxorraxor 3y ago
Indeed. A much better approach is to say thank you if something was done if it was demanded, even for daily business tasks. Usually the 'please' is superficial because there is no way to say 'no' without an excuse.
worble 3y ago
Yeah I hate "please", but assuming I'm with a cohort that understands it, "pls" seems to work a lot better, i.e: >can you merge that pr pls I'm not sure why, I guess it just sounds a lot more casual when written down and read? It still gets across that it's a request, not a command, but without that patronising tone. Generally speaking I've very much gone from speaking very formally in chat with my teammates to casual chat where I no longer care for punctuation or capitalisation, makes it feel a lot friendlier I guess? Obviously for official comms/emails/talking to someone I don't know I format properly and professionally but for day to day stuff I just like keeping casual, like you would speaking in the office I guess.
doetoe 3y ago
I think the intended difference in tone would be that between > "Can you run the SQL update in prod?" (optionally with "please" appended) and > "Run the SQL update in prod" (or something like that)
mock-possum 3y ago
I like emojis, I wish they were allowed in HN comments ;]
maxverse 3y ago
I find that this is a classic communication style preference. I also know people who find these "pleasantries" patronizing and unnecessary. I'm on the other end: someone saying "please" and "thank you" makes me feel like they're acknowledging me as a person, not just barking commands at me. There's no right answer; you just have to learn what the person you work with needs.

winternewt 3y ago

When people use a lot of emojis, the story in my head is that they care more about keeping appearances up than about honesty and transparency. It's fake positivity.

felurx 3y ago
Then tell them that! Give them the feedback they need so they can know how to communicate with you better. (Talking about person-to-person relationships, of course) In the end, this is a matter of taste. Just because something works for someone, it doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. But also: Just because something fails to work for someone, it doesn't mean that it will fail to work fo everyone.
IggleSniggle 3y ago
I like to use emojis when they allow me to get denser content, especially if it's to be printed to a TTY. As long as there's a key somewhere, reducing var names to a single character allows you to pack in a lot more information, while simultaneously being far more expressive than eg "i", "j", "k". It gives you the benefits of columnar data without requiring scrolling back to see headers or even requiring that the columns be perfectly evenly spaced.
RugnirViking 3y ago
I disagree. I feel there are certain "styles" of emoji use. I don't know if I can explain it well. for example ive worked with people who are really good communicators who use things like sunglasses emoji or muscle emoji to make you actually feel good and keep concise clear communication. But people who make some big long official announcement then pepper it with random emojis to make it more "fun" can be extremely offputting. There are appropriate times to put them but you gotta anticipate how your audience is likely to feel and use them to show you're communicating in good faith, and if you're communicating in bad faith, just don't use them at all, we can all tell. Also the choice and timing of emojis can be good or bad. Honestly I think it literally comes down to a culture difference between hr types and engineers
watwut 3y ago
I usually imagine they hang around people who use emojis a lot. No reason to get offended over someone growing up in slightly different culture.

arketyp 3y ago

Yeah. This is good advice and all but it's no use if embraced only by behavior on a superficial level. Then it's just cosmetic and can be quite vile at worst, like seeing guys repeat pick-up artist tricks.

byteware 3y ago

yes, coworkers thanking me for a bugfix or a feature bothers the hell out of me. man I am not doing it for you, I am doing it for money that is thanks enough

politelemon 3y ago
That isn't the same thing. Your efforts can still be appreciated as it will have had had a positive impact on them. They're merely expressing it, which is something people do. After all, if everyone assumed the attitude in your last sentence, it would make for a highly unpleasant environment overall and make work a lot more stressful.
brightlancer 3y ago
> yes, coworkers thanking me for a bugfix or a feature bothers the hell out of me. man I am not doing it for you, I am doing it for money that is thanks enough And they're thanking you for doing something that will keep them employed. I had a customer one time like you. I was talking with her on the phone and I was phrasing requests (as I often did) as "would you do this for me?" "I'm not doing this for you, I'm doing this for my boss," she repeatedly responded, while repeatedly ignoring my directions. Accept the expression of gratitude, even if your inner narcissism doesn't want you to.
- byteware 3y ago
  not like I am vocalizing this damn, that would be effed up, I am just silently feeling this way then respond and act according to the expected norms

jstarfish 3y ago

Bioshock gave me the idea, but I find "would you kindly..." goes over a lot better.

klibertp 3y ago
...aren't you afraid someone will take a golf club and hit you with it? Honestly, the fear of saying this phrase to someone who just happened to play Bioshock and saw Ryan's monologue is enough for me to never-ever use it. I don't know how I'd react if I heard it directed at me, but I'm 99% sure I'd - at the very, very least - say "No, I would not" and go away. There's a fine line between "formative" and "traumatic" and I'm really not sure on which side that playthrough falls, even 15 years later.

lodovic 3y ago

I'm just hearing Bill Lumbergh.. "Yeah if you could just go ahead and run that SQL query .. that would be great"

denkmoon 3y ago

Never went on a management course and never been a manager, I always say please and thankyou. It's polite. Sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about it though.

wink 3y ago
I think there is no hard rule. Some people say that all the time, some never. Some have a friendly tone and don't need it, but if they add it suddenly it can appear like mentioned. No one said you should stop and I'm pretty sure it won't annoy people if it comes naturally. It's the same as when sales people talk to me and intersperse "Well, Mr. wink, you know about this great offer, that will benefit you, Mr. wink, very much. As I said earlier, Mr. wink." - makes me want to end the call right at the 2nd mention.
chownie 3y ago
Being patronising comes naturally to some people, don't worry about it too much.
dennis_jeeves1 3y ago
>It's polite. Sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about it though. I would tell you to cut that shit out, if you dealt with me in person. I really would.
- denkmoon 3y ago
  Which would be quite impolite, tough fella. The nice thing about working in a professional environment is that I don't have to cater to your desires, I simply have to be polite and professional :)
  - msm_ 3y ago
    I can't figure out if you're patronising on purpose, or genuinely polite. FWIW I suspect it's the later, and your sorrys and smiles are meant to soften the blow. But I guess that highlights the issue - it's sometimes hard to distinguish between the two, especially when the other side (like me) is used to a more direct communication.

uoaei 3y ago

Yeah if it's just tacked on at the end it may come across as manipulative. There's better ways to rephrase it that is less patronizing, such as: "Please run the SQL update in prod and notify me when it's complete."

paganel 3y ago

It depends on the culture. Come to Eastern Europe (and I guess to other similar cultures, South America maybe?) and see how far you can go without saying "please" or "thank you". Not that far, I can tell you that. Even though things are beginning to change for the worst in tech world, but, then again, many of the tech people in here see themselves as North-Westerners who happened to be born in the wrong place.

raxxorraxor 3y ago

Indeed. A much better approach is to say thank you if something was done if it was demanded, even for daily business tasks. Usually the 'please' is superficial because there is no way to say 'no' without an excuse.

worble 3y ago

Yeah I hate "please", but assuming I'm with a cohort that understands it, "pls" seems to work a lot better, i.e: >can you merge that pr pls I'm not sure why, I guess it just sounds a lot more casual when written down and read? It still gets across that it's a request, not a command, but without that patronising tone. Generally speaking I've very much gone from speaking very formally in chat with my teammates to casual chat where I no longer care for punctuation or capitalisation, makes it feel a lot friendlier I guess? Obviously for official comms/emails/talking to someone I don't know I format properly and professionally but for day to day stuff I just like keeping casual, like you would speaking in the office I guess.

doetoe 3y ago

I think the intended difference in tone would be that between > "Can you run the SQL update in prod?" (optionally with "please" appended) and > "Run the SQL update in prod" (or something like that)

mock-possum 3y ago

I like emojis, I wish they were allowed in HN comments ;]

maxverse 3y ago

I find that this is a classic communication style preference. I also know people who find these "pleasantries" patronizing and unnecessary. I'm on the other end: someone saying "please" and "thank you" makes me feel like they're acknowledging me as a person, not just barking commands at me. There's no right answer; you just have to learn what the person you work with needs.