3 ms·

I have not used any distro except of Debian-like for more than few days. But scare of systemd makes me think about trying other ones, maybe Devuan.

UncleSlacky 3y ago
MX Linux is Debian-based but offers sysvinit by default (systemd is optional).
- stOneskull 3y ago
  i think mx linux makes the perfect debian desktop. and it's really amazing how many great distros there are based on debian. happy 30th! happy debianday!
IshKebab 3y ago
Yeah I hadn't for ages either but have been using RHEL at work for almost a year. It's very annoying because of occasionally missing packages (e.g. `z3`), and just having to figure out different names of packages etc. However I would have to say that `dnf` (the new `yum`) is waaay better than apt. For a start it is much much faster to install things. I don't know why apt is so slow. But also it comes with great features to help you deal with very common and tedious Linux admin tasks, like "what package do I install to get this file my program is demanding?" (`dnf provides`) and they have some very nice features like if you run a command and it isn't installed it will offer to install it for you and then run your original command. Someone actually thought about UX for once. Or if you run a program and it can't find a shared library, it will tell you all the missing libraries, not just the first one. It would be amazing if it also offered to install the right packages but it doesn't quite yet. So in conclusion I'd stick with Debian given the choice but I sure wish the Apt developers would spend some time using dnf.
- rvdginste 3y ago
  > what package do I install to get this file my program is demanding? You can install apt-file, and then use `apt-file search`.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Ok but why isn't that just part of apt?
- yakubin 3y ago
  > However I would have to say that `dnf` (the new `yum`) is waaay better than apt. For a start it is much much faster to install things. I don't know why apt is so slow. I (and everyone else I know of) have the opposite experience, which pretty much matches the numbers here: <https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-linux-package-managers-are-slow/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-linux-package...>. DNF seems to be 0.1% faster than YUM, but it’s still not competitive with other package managers.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Yeah it's because its metadata update is automatic and stupidly slow and he's only installing one package so that dominates. When you're installing 100 packages it's a lot faster though. But it is quite annoying - I wish the update were faster.
    - dralley 3y ago
      There are a couple changes coming that will help 1) zstd compressed metadata. Currently almost all repos use gzip, but zstd works better. All the software support is in place it just needs to be used, and Fedora will likely be turning out on soon. 2) dnf5 will do a better job of parallelizing metadata downloads. Currently it happens one repo at a time. 3) dnf5 will avoid downloading file lists.xml when it's not needed, which is a big help because that file tends to be the largest one Hopefully then it will be faster than apt without any asterisks
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        That sounds great. Why use XML in the first place though? Strange design.
dralley 3y ago
> scare of systemd Really? After 10 years of using distros with systemd, you'd consider switching because you're "scared" of it?
- eimrine 3y ago
  How am I supposed to get scared of systemd without 10 years of using Linux distros? If I am comfortable without using MS/Apple/Google software then systemd is the last barrier between me and freedom.
dsr_ 3y ago
We have all of our dev and production servers running on Debian without systemd as init. systemd helper packages are still installed. It's more difficult in desktop installs.

UncleSlacky 3y ago

MX Linux is Debian-based but offers sysvinit by default (systemd is optional).

stOneskull 3y ago
i think mx linux makes the perfect debian desktop. and it's really amazing how many great distros there are based on debian. happy 30th! happy debianday!

IshKebab 3y ago

Yeah I hadn't for ages either but have been using RHEL at work for almost a year. It's very annoying because of occasionally missing packages (e.g. `z3`), and just having to figure out different names of packages etc. However I would have to say that `dnf` (the new `yum`) is waaay better than apt. For a start it is much much faster to install things. I don't know why apt is so slow. But also it comes with great features to help you deal with very common and tedious Linux admin tasks, like "what package do I install to get this file my program is demanding?" (`dnf provides`) and they have some very nice features like if you run a command and it isn't installed it will offer to install it for you and then run your original command. Someone actually thought about UX for once. Or if you run a program and it can't find a shared library, it will tell you all the missing libraries, not just the first one. It would be amazing if it also offered to install the right packages but it doesn't quite yet. So in conclusion I'd stick with Debian given the choice but I sure wish the Apt developers would spend some time using dnf.

rvdginste 3y ago
> what package do I install to get this file my program is demanding? You can install apt-file, and then use `apt-file search`.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Ok but why isn't that just part of apt?
yakubin 3y ago
> However I would have to say that `dnf` (the new `yum`) is waaay better than apt. For a start it is much much faster to install things. I don't know why apt is so slow. I (and everyone else I know of) have the opposite experience, which pretty much matches the numbers here: <https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-linux-package-managers-are-slow/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-linux-package...>. DNF seems to be 0.1% faster than YUM, but it’s still not competitive with other package managers.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Yeah it's because its metadata update is automatic and stupidly slow and he's only installing one package so that dominates. When you're installing 100 packages it's a lot faster though. But it is quite annoying - I wish the update were faster.
  - dralley 3y ago
    There are a couple changes coming that will help 1) zstd compressed metadata. Currently almost all repos use gzip, but zstd works better. All the software support is in place it just needs to be used, and Fedora will likely be turning out on soon. 2) dnf5 will do a better job of parallelizing metadata downloads. Currently it happens one repo at a time. 3) dnf5 will avoid downloading file lists.xml when it's not needed, which is a big help because that file tends to be the largest one Hopefully then it will be faster than apt without any asterisks
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      That sounds great. Why use XML in the first place though? Strange design.

dralley 3y ago

> scare of systemd Really? After 10 years of using distros with systemd, you'd consider switching because you're "scared" of it?

eimrine 3y ago
How am I supposed to get scared of systemd without 10 years of using Linux distros? If I am comfortable without using MS/Apple/Google software then systemd is the last barrier between me and freedom.

dsr_ 3y ago

We have all of our dev and production servers running on Debian without systemd as init. systemd helper packages are still installed. It's more difficult in desktop installs.