6 ms·

So which espresso making device does HN prefer? I've bought myself a Kamira but looking to try out others as well.

by jcfrei 3y ago

seanhunter 3y ago
Firstly I would say that the grinder makes an outsize difference relative to cost so I would strongly recommend you first invest in something like a Mahlkohning Vario (this is what I have as a present from my lovely wife who just by pure coincidence also likes nice coffee). Then I have a friend who is an ex-high-end-barista and gigantic coffee snob (like coffee snob's coffee snob) and insists that once you have a good grinder it's more important to get a reverse osmosis filter than a high-end espresso machine. Make of that what you will, but if you want to investigate that he swears by this book[1] and having drunk coffee at Colonna and Smalls in Bath (owned by one of the guys who wrote the book) I can say he might be on to something. Certainly every cafe that does amazing coffee has an RO filter. I have an ECM entry-level machine and it's great. I dont' need (or ever use) the frothing parts unless we have guests but they do the thing they are supposed to and the main coffee bit works great. I wish it could get a bit more pressure but it makes a good cup of espresso if I tamp well and use nice beans (which, you should always use nice beans. There's really no excuse for that one). In the UK you can get great home coffee equipment as well as advice from Bella Barista[2]. Probably most countries have a place like that but even if you're not in the UK I would look at what they have as being a good starting point. [1] https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-colonna-dashwood/christopher-hendon/9781782806080 https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-co... [2] https://bellabarista.co.uk/ https://bellabarista.co.uk/
- matwood 3y ago
  I would agree with your friend. I typically do pour over, and getting a nice grinder was a huge upgrade for the coffee flavor. I also only use filtered water. Next is fresher beans. Frowned upon I'm sure, but for espresso a machine like Nespresso or L'Or has worked fine in a pinch.
- drittich 3y ago
  I have a Mazzer Mini grinder that's pretty old and I suspect it is the weak link in the chain (paired with Rocket espresso machine). Is there an easy way to tell if the grinder is doing its job well, e.g., some reliable way to examine the grain size?
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    For me the grinder allows repeatability. I was trying to dial in shots with the grinder on my breville and was quickly frustrated. I could do everything else the same and get very different extraction times for the same volume of espresso, I ran 5 lbs of coffee through it in a row with my laptop and a spreadsheet tracking things trying to get consistent times, and it just wouldn’t be consistent. I bought a HG-1, probably overkill, but now my mid-range breville puts out coffee that is way way better than most cafes, and it’s dead consistent. I have to adjust a little as my fresh coffee adapts to the world once the bag is open, but that’s it. I’m sure you could find calibrated screens for espresso somewhere, but my bet is they would cost more than a new grinder. If it’s consistent, tastes good, and you have fine enough settings to adjust your extraction, I’d say it’s good.
    - drittich 3y ago
      I do think it's pretty consistent in extraction times. I probably just need to clean it :)
  - aliher1911 3y ago
    Not sure if very reliable but there's an app to analyse size distribution using camera: https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/04/07/an-app-to-measure-your-coffee-grind-size-distribution-2/ https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/04/07/an-app-to-measure-your-...
    - drittich 3y ago
      Oh, that's cool! Will definitely give that a try, thanks.
  - ThrowawayR2 3y ago
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  I’ll check out the book but while I wait for shipping, could you share what you do with the RO water? Do you put your own mineral and salt profile into it, or just use it as pure H2O? I have an RO filter and build my own water profile for my homebrew beer, hadn’t started down that road for coffee yet.
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    I don't do anything - I just have a regular filter but my understanding is that the people who do this do certain black magic which somewhat depends on the "hardness/softness" and ph of the water as well as other stuff but it's all in that book apparently. I don't know the details. Edit to add: Actually I just found this resource which you might find helpful https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/08/15/a-practical-water-guide-for-coffee-professionals-part-i/ https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/08/15/a-practical-water-gui...
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      I went down the rabbit hole trying to learn about this, and it’s actually pretty easy to replicate the recommended water. Home brewing (beer) water is far more complex than this. I’m going to brew some with this profile and see if I can taste the change, and if not I’m just sticking with my filtered tap water because it’s honestly pretty darn close. Just needs the chloramine taken out.
  - mustacheemperor 3y ago
    >wait for shipping Assuming you mean the "notify when back in stock" on that website, unfortunately the book is now out of print. If anyone else has an alternative source for it, I would be interested in reading it, and it seems like it would make a great gift for my coffee-geek friends.
  - LesZedCB 3y ago
    https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/barista-hustle-water-recipe/ https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/barista-hustle-water-reci...
- roflyear 3y ago
  RO is really important (along with remineralization), but you can buy RO water without a filter, so if you're not making several coffees a day, maybe it isn't worth it. If your supermarket has available RO water to fill jugs even better.
fellowmartian 3y ago
Breville Infuser or Bambino Plus for people who don’t want to DIY nor break the bank.
exitb 3y ago
In that segment, Flair is the right answer. It’s simple, durable and capable of delivering 100% real espresso, on par with high end machines. It’s also not weird, you can actually use it every day and prep the drink in just a few minutes. Also note that Flair 58 is compatible with regular-sized generic espresso accessories.
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  I just plugged their new $99 model above. It's a great way to get started on home expresso and honestly will never need upgrading for 99% of people.
SimianLogic 3y ago
I started with a handpresso. I’ve had a ROK manual for 10 years and have given several as gifts. Upgraded/replaced most of the parts outside the frame. I had a part break earlier this year and they sent me new ones for free.
pivo 3y ago
I've used, but don't currently own, a Cafelat Robot (https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-green-cafel-pp https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-gre...) The Robot made great espresso, and I was just about to buy one for myself but then the Meticulous Espresso machine (https://meticuloushome.com/ https://meticuloushome.com/) was announced on kickstarter and I splurged on that instead (deliver by end of year, or so they say.) If for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll get the robot
- Gerard0 3y ago
  Can't wait for it. It is looking good! Would be surprised if it doesn't work.
simonsarris 3y ago
At home I use a Bialetti Venus (moka pot), which makes a pseudo-espresso (longer, with poor crema). Nonetheless I prize this and look forward to it each day. It's about $40.
agloe_dreams 3y ago
Flair, or Gaggia Classic for those who are DIY
SergeAx 3y ago
Nespresso classic with Illy capsules.
dfxm12 3y ago
Think about budget and if your budget is high enough, if you make several milk drinks back to back and need more than a single boiler machine. At different price points, I'd look at Gaggia classic pro, profitec go, profitec pro 300. You'll also have to budget for a proper espresso grinder. Check out https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ for the best prices on grinders. The Kamira appears to be a moka pot, not an espresso machine.
demondemidi 3y ago
anything with an e61 group-head and a double boiler. pid controlled heat exchanger will work but can be challenging if you really get into it.
roflyear 3y ago
Personally, an LP or any Flair product. But the grinder is absolutely more important than the espresso machine.
JonChesterfield 3y ago
Jura E8 here. Single button cappuccino box, competently engineered. Milk goes through a small subset of the machine which disassembles easily and there's a cleaning tablet option for not taking it apart. I think it could be wifi attached and persuaded to make one as an alarm clock but that's more bother than I've gone to. That one optimises for minimum hassle per cup of coffee at the expense of up front and running costs. No regrets.
mtam 3y ago
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 + Kafatek MC5 Grinder Pour-over: V60 + Fellow Ode 2 Grinder Traveling: Wacaco Picopresso + Comandante C4 Grinder

So which espresso making device does HN prefer? I've bought myself a Kamira but looking to try out others as well.

by jcfrei 3y ago

So which espresso making device does HN prefer? I've bought myself a Kamira but looking to try out others as well.

Firstly I would say that the grinder makes an outsize difference relative to cost so I would strongly recommend you first invest in something like a Mahlkohning Vario (this is what I have as a present from my lovely wife who just by pure coincidence also likes nice coffee). Then I have a friend who is an ex-high-end-barista and gigantic coffee snob (like coffee snob's coffee snob) and insists that once you have a good grinder it's more important to get a reverse osmosis filter than a high-end espresso machine. Make of that what you will, but if you want to investigate that he swears by this book[1] and having drunk coffee at Colonna and Smalls in Bath (owned by one of the guys who wrote the book) I can say he might be on to something. Certainly every cafe that does amazing coffee has an RO filter. I have an ECM entry-level machine and it's great. I dont' need (or ever use) the frothing parts unless we have guests but they do the thing they are supposed to and the main coffee bit works great. I wish it could get a bit more pressure but it makes a good cup of espresso if I tamp well and use nice beans (which, you should always use nice beans. There's really no excuse for that one). In the UK you can get great home coffee equipment as well as advice from Bella Barista[2]. Probably most countries have a place like that but even if you're not in the UK I would look at what they have as being a good starting point. [1] https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-colonna-dashwood/christopher-hendon/9781782806080 https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-co... [2] https://bellabarista.co.uk/ https://bellabarista.co.uk/

matwood 3y ago
I would agree with your friend. I typically do pour over, and getting a nice grinder was a huge upgrade for the coffee flavor. I also only use filtered water. Next is fresher beans. Frowned upon I'm sure, but for espresso a machine like Nespresso or L'Or has worked fine in a pinch.
drittich 3y ago
I have a Mazzer Mini grinder that's pretty old and I suspect it is the weak link in the chain (paired with Rocket espresso machine). Is there an easy way to tell if the grinder is doing its job well, e.g., some reliable way to examine the grain size?
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  For me the grinder allows repeatability. I was trying to dial in shots with the grinder on my breville and was quickly frustrated. I could do everything else the same and get very different extraction times for the same volume of espresso, I ran 5 lbs of coffee through it in a row with my laptop and a spreadsheet tracking things trying to get consistent times, and it just wouldn’t be consistent. I bought a HG-1, probably overkill, but now my mid-range breville puts out coffee that is way way better than most cafes, and it’s dead consistent. I have to adjust a little as my fresh coffee adapts to the world once the bag is open, but that’s it. I’m sure you could find calibrated screens for espresso somewhere, but my bet is they would cost more than a new grinder. If it’s consistent, tastes good, and you have fine enough settings to adjust your extraction, I’d say it’s good.
  - drittich 3y ago
    I do think it's pretty consistent in extraction times. I probably just need to clean it :)
- aliher1911 3y ago
  Not sure if very reliable but there's an app to analyse size distribution using camera: https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/04/07/an-app-to-measure-your-coffee-grind-size-distribution-2/ https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/04/07/an-app-to-measure-your-...
  - drittich 3y ago
    Oh, that's cool! Will definitely give that a try, thanks.
- ThrowawayR2 3y ago
MarkMarine 3y ago
I’ll check out the book but while I wait for shipping, could you share what you do with the RO water? Do you put your own mineral and salt profile into it, or just use it as pure H2O? I have an RO filter and build my own water profile for my homebrew beer, hadn’t started down that road for coffee yet.
- seanhunter 3y ago
  I don't do anything - I just have a regular filter but my understanding is that the people who do this do certain black magic which somewhat depends on the "hardness/softness" and ph of the water as well as other stuff but it's all in that book apparently. I don't know the details. Edit to add: Actually I just found this resource which you might find helpful https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/08/15/a-practical-water-guide-for-coffee-professionals-part-i/ https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/08/15/a-practical-water-gui...
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    I went down the rabbit hole trying to learn about this, and it’s actually pretty easy to replicate the recommended water. Home brewing (beer) water is far more complex than this. I’m going to brew some with this profile and see if I can taste the change, and if not I’m just sticking with my filtered tap water because it’s honestly pretty darn close. Just needs the chloramine taken out.
- mustacheemperor 3y ago
  >wait for shipping Assuming you mean the "notify when back in stock" on that website, unfortunately the book is now out of print. If anyone else has an alternative source for it, I would be interested in reading it, and it seems like it would make a great gift for my coffee-geek friends.
- LesZedCB 3y ago
  https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/barista-hustle-water-recipe/ https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/barista-hustle-water-reci...
roflyear 3y ago
RO is really important (along with remineralization), but you can buy RO water without a filter, so if you're not making several coffees a day, maybe it isn't worth it. If your supermarket has available RO water to fill jugs even better.

fellowmartian 3y ago

Breville Infuser or Bambino Plus for people who don’t want to DIY nor break the bank.

exitb 3y ago

In that segment, Flair is the right answer. It’s simple, durable and capable of delivering 100% real espresso, on par with high end machines. It’s also not weird, you can actually use it every day and prep the drink in just a few minutes. Also note that Flair 58 is compatible with regular-sized generic espresso accessories.

zemvpferreira 3y ago
I just plugged their new $99 model above. It's a great way to get started on home expresso and honestly will never need upgrading for 99% of people.

SimianLogic 3y ago

I started with a handpresso. I’ve had a ROK manual for 10 years and have given several as gifts. Upgraded/replaced most of the parts outside the frame. I had a part break earlier this year and they sent me new ones for free.

pivo 3y ago

I've used, but don't currently own, a Cafelat Robot (https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-green-cafel-pp https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-gre...) The Robot made great espresso, and I was just about to buy one for myself but then the Meticulous Espresso machine (https://meticuloushome.com/ https://meticuloushome.com/) was announced on kickstarter and I splurged on that instead (deliver by end of year, or so they say.) If for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll get the robot

Gerard0 3y ago
Can't wait for it. It is looking good! Would be surprised if it doesn't work.

simonsarris 3y ago

At home I use a Bialetti Venus (moka pot), which makes a pseudo-espresso (longer, with poor crema). Nonetheless I prize this and look forward to it each day. It's about $40.

agloe_dreams 3y ago

Flair, or Gaggia Classic for those who are DIY

SergeAx 3y ago

Nespresso classic with Illy capsules.

dfxm12 3y ago

Think about budget and if your budget is high enough, if you make several milk drinks back to back and need more than a single boiler machine. At different price points, I'd look at Gaggia classic pro, profitec go, profitec pro 300. You'll also have to budget for a proper espresso grinder. Check out https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ for the best prices on grinders. The Kamira appears to be a moka pot, not an espresso machine.

demondemidi 3y ago

anything with an e61 group-head and a double boiler. pid controlled heat exchanger will work but can be challenging if you really get into it.

roflyear 3y ago

Personally, an LP or any Flair product. But the grinder is absolutely more important than the espresso machine.

JonChesterfield 3y ago

Jura E8 here. Single button cappuccino box, competently engineered. Milk goes through a small subset of the machine which disassembles easily and there's a cleaning tablet option for not taking it apart. I think it could be wifi attached and persuaded to make one as an alarm clock but that's more bother than I've gone to. That one optimises for minimum hassle per cup of coffee at the expense of up front and running costs. No regrets.

mtam 3y ago

Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 + Kafatek MC5 Grinder Pour-over: V60 + Fellow Ode 2 Grinder Traveling: Wacaco Picopresso + Comandante C4 Grinder