18 ms·

Petition to stop France from forcing browsers like Firefox to censor websites

555 points by Raed667 3y ago

debacle 3y ago
Firefox is open source. Bonne chance.
- some_random 3y ago
  So what? So it Chromium but that doesn't stop Google from pushing whatever anti-consumer nonsense they want.
  - debacle 3y ago
    ...and you can get Chromium without Google, easily, because it's open source. https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium
    - cobalt60 3y ago
      So yeah Google devs pushed WEI into chromium just a month ago
      - Zuiii 3y ago
        And? GP's point still stands.
Raed667 3y ago
Link to the proposed bill (French) https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000047533100/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000...
- tgv 3y ago
  I plugged it in deepl.com: The Minister for the Economy, Finance and Industrial and Digital Sovereignty and the Minister attached to the Minister for the Economy, Finance and Industrial and Digital Sovereignty, responsible for the Digital Transition and Telecommunications, have presented the bill to secure and regulate the digital space (SREN) in order to restore the confidence necessary for the success of the digital transition. With this bill, France is adopting a range of bold and unprecedented practical measures aimed at strengthening public order in the digital environment. The result of interministerial work led by Jean-Noël Barrot, the bill contains some twenty proposals aimed in particular at : - implement an anti-scam cybersecurity filter to protect the French against attempts to access their personal or bank details fraudulently for malicious purposes, which have increased in number in recent years; - strengthen penalties for people convicted of cyberbullying, a phenomenon that is spreading on social networks; - strengthen the system for enforcing online age limits for access to pornographic sites, to better protect our children; - penalise sites that fail to remove online child pornography content; - restore commercial fairness to the cloud market, which is currently concentrated in the hands of a handful of players.
ltadeut 3y ago
It would be nice if Mozilla would add more context around it. That said, it’s freaking exhausting how these dumb actions keep being taken by governments all over the world. It seems like every month there’s some new crap going on
- polotics 3y ago
  Yes indeed! is this enforced DRM everywhere or you can't browse? is this a forced french MITM certificate chain you can't remove, is this something else? how does using Tor with a non-french exit node get impacted? If I ssh over port 80 or any other to a french-located box does something change?
  - bonzini 3y ago
    It seems to be a version of safe browsing that is mandated by law to be a full block rather than a warning. It will be very easy to bypass, making this a very stupid law. It's slightly more worrisome that the law doesn't include any privacy protection measures, but the GDPR still applies and whoever runs the checking service has to comply with it since the browsing history is personal data.
    - Calamitous 3y ago
      > It will be very easy to bypass, making this a very stupid law. It’s not about being effective, it’s about making things illegal. It’s trivially easy to break the speed limit, but that doesn’t stop local police using it to collect millions of dollars of fines every year
      - bonzini 3y ago
        It doesn't seem that the law makes it illegal to use a browser that bypasses the block, unless the content was already illegal.
- antoinebalaine 3y ago
  Here's the context: the fr gov's been acting against national interest for more than 20 years in a row. The people know it. The gov knows the people know. The gov wants to pretend it's not doing anything wrong. It could keep pretending credibly, if only people would keep their trap shut on the web. So now gov wants to control what people can see and say on the web.
fluidcruft 3y ago
I have less than zero idea what's going on here? I understand the broad topic but exactly what is France demanding? A list of blocked URLs browsers should refuse to render? A list of IPs that are forbidden (doesn't make sense since that can be handled at ISP or OS level). Blocked words/phrases (trivially bypassed by people who have the list and can iterate on text until allowed)? Blocked links? Input fields that prevent certain words from being posted? French Academy policing use of loanwords and requiring use of the blessed words? What exactly is this about?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- sinuhe69 3y ago
  https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser-website-blocking/ https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser...
- btilly 3y ago
  They want a way for a government provided list to block URLs on your browser. I predict that hackers will find a way to replace the government list with their own in 3, 2, 1...
  - rvnx 3y ago
    Google Safebrowsing is very rarely compromised (except indirectly when Gaia was hacked at Google), this can be the same mechanism.
  - bonzini 3y ago
    Replace hackers with users.
polski-g 3y ago
If Mozilla doesn't have employees or a nexus in France, they could just ignore this law.
- dralley 3y ago
  They have an office in Paris IIRC
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    Close it up.
mkl95 3y ago
The French government's approach to modern tech is similar to the UK and Germany in some ways. They seem to be advised by a bunch of decrepit dudes who stopped learning about computers before the OSI model was created.
- tasogare 3y ago
  There're a bunch of corrupted inviduals with no counter power to keep them in check. No decisions are made for the benefit of the French people since a long time, every law passed is either to augment their power, rise taxes (already world top 1 or 2 depending on the year) or to the benefit their friends owning private companies. Of course technology freedom will suffer from this as well.
  - rvnx 3y ago
    Well if majority votes for them, it's important to respect the choice of the voters, even if you don't like their choice because you have other interests that you want to defend. The opposition in France are far from being angels, it's very similar to Democrats vs Republican situation in France (except Gauche vs Droite).
    - binary132 3y ago
      What limits are you willing to place on this? Majorities can and do vote for monsters.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        Not only that, it's common to have a ballot that only presents a choice between two monsters. It's your fault if you vote for one and it's your fault if you stay home. Maybe the problem is systemic? Checks and balances that get eroded during populist waves, stay that way when the monster comes.
  - TacticalCoder 3y ago
    > ... or to the benefit their friends owning private companies. Yup this one in France is really a big problem. The public sector spendings officially represents something like 58.1% of the french GDP (official "Insee" numbers from 2023, for 2022)... France is not far from a planned economy and, unsurprisingly, it's a particularly harsh environment for real small private SMEs (i.e. those without friends at the state) and for entrepreneurs, for they're getting trounced by taxes. And that gigantic state (percentage wise of the GDP, not on the world stage) still cannot prevent days of riots and drug-dealers from ruling the streets (like in the city of Marseille). A deeply corrupt state where public servants are planted so that taxes can grow and, in return, the people don't even get safe streets. But all is fine and well for these corrupt politicians because soon they'll be able to prevent comments such as yours or mine from being read by anyone.
dist-epoch 3y ago
[flagged]
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Last I've heard the web browser was invented in Switzerland, as opposed to Gopher (US invented) which ended up unused
  - polotics 3y ago
    Let's pick elementary particle sized nits... Tim Berner Lee's office most likely had noise from planes landing at Geneva airport, but still most likely was on the territory of France :-)
    - lbalazscs 3y ago
      Indeed. > The Franco-Swiss border runs through the CERN campus and building 31 is literally just a few feet into France. However, there is no explicit border within CERN and the main entrance is in Switzerland, so the situation of which country it was invented in is actually quite a tricky one. The current commemorative plaque, which is outside a row of offices where people other than Tim Berners-Lee worked on the web, is in Switzerland. To add to the confusion, in case Tim thought of the web at home, his home was in France but he temporarily moved to rented accommodation in Switzerland, just around the time the web was developed. https://davidgalbraith.org/uncategorized/the-exact-location-where-the-web-was-invented/2343/ https://davidgalbraith.org/uncategorized/the-exact-location-...
  - charonn0 3y ago
    All modern web browsers descend directly or indirectly from Netscape.
- anthk 3y ago
  The browser was invented in Europe.
  - 3y ago
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
I thought they wanted "more than deplatforming" https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat... https://archive.today/ia2z4 https://archive.today/ia2z4
- myko 3y ago
  Everything in that blog post looks reasonable, unlike what France is looking to do
  - redeeman 3y ago
    yeah, I do agree that it was very reprehensible of trump to tell people to go home and be peaceful. I mean, how incompetent can he be? he spends all the effort scheming and plotting to illegitimately take over the government, capture the capital, and overthrow the good men and women working there, only to then go and screw it up at the end by telling people to PEACEFULLY make their voices heard, and then double down on this monumental screwup, by telling them to go home???? my god how stupid can trump be.
  - Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
    Mozilla wants to stop "disinformation". France's excuse of fraud doesn't exactly overlap but what is fraud other than disinformation with a goal of direct monetary gain? Mozilla also don't say who will be the ultimate arbiter so France is answering. Mozilla want transparency of how bad things are dealt with and France is giving a clear list and telling them how to do it. Exactly the same way as Mozilla celebrates by ensuring nobody can see the bad thing. This may sound like I support what France is proposing. I don't. However I'm not French so I don't get a say. I thoroughly enjoy the hypocrisy of Mozilla's statements on these matters. "Stop Bad Things." "No not like that!"
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  Exactly. Mozilla is one of the worst tech companies pretending to do good. Tech wasn't always like this. In the 00s, everyone was for free speech. Mozilla wasn't like this either. Hate to say it, but once the tech elite ( or more like the money elite controlling tech ) started talking about minority, lgbt and women's 'rights', they all started censoring, deplatforming, oppressing. Of course to fight 'hate speech' - whatever that means. It's like someone or some group flipped a switch and everyone from business to politics started singing a different tune. Once again, everything we accuse china of, we are. China has a single party controlled media right? How is it that one day, every commercial and media suddenly became so 'diverse'? Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. Just asking who flipped the switch?
SkySkimmer 3y ago
>It would set a dangerous precedent This seems to be false as the precedent already exists. sources: Étude d'impact (PDF linked in https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000047533100/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000...) says >Par ses modalités, ce dispositif est à rapprocher du dispositif de filtrage prévu au 1° de l’article L. 521-3-1 du code de la consommation, permettant aux agents de la DGCCRF d’ordonner, selon des conditions et modalités particulières, aux opérateurs de plateformes en ligne, aux fournisseurs d’accès à internet ainsi qu’aux exploitants de navigateurs internet d’afficher un message avertissant les consommateurs du risque de préjudice encouru s’ils accèdent au contenu manifestement illicite, et au b du 2° du même article, qui leur permet d’ordonner à ces mêmes opérateurs et aux hébergeurs de prendre toute mesure utile destinée à limiter l’accès à ces contenus. Article L. 521-3-1 du code de la consommation: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000042615686 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
- _trackno5 3y ago
  It’s absurd that an article exists to allow French govt agents to display messages in my browser. How is that even enforced?
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Rules exist to require messages be shown on phones - for example the emergency alert system for hurricanes. Doesn't seem unreasonable that computer OS's and/or web browsers be required to support the same.
    - _trackno5 3y ago
      Sure, we can all agree that this narrow use is in the interest of the public. Emphasis on narrow. It’s completely unreasonable to have a broad scope direct communication channel between the government and my browser or OS.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
maxwell 3y ago
Petition? Mozilla should just ban usage in France if they pass this merd.
- fdgjgbdfhgb 3y ago
  _merde_!
  - maxwell 3y ago
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merd#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merd#English
- stefncb 3y ago
  And what would that do, exactly? The government wouldn't care. In fact, they would probably be better off for it because everyone would simply switch to Chrome and there's one less browser to deal with. The only thing you'll do is make the problem worse and take away choice from the French people who want nothing to do with this bs.
  - maxwell 3y ago
    I'm saying they update their terms to prohibit compliance with censorship (specifically defined in line with the French bill's text), not impose geo restrictions or attempt legal enforcement. Building out censorship functionality doesn't really seem viable for Firefox's future worldwide.
kgwxd 3y ago
How can France force them? Just don’t do it.
- alexisns 3y ago
  well otherwise France can ask its ISP's to just block Mozilla in France if it doesn't comply
  - planede 3y ago
    And also block 3rd party (linux distro) repositories that also ship Firefox?
    - anthk 3y ago
      Inria for sure would love that /s... The week after Guix-HPC users see their Hydras blocked, the goverment it's fucked over by a call from "a big boss" from corpos relying on reproducible scientific materials and the guy who did that "great idea" fired in the spot to save up some asses (and Euros).
- justin66 3y ago
  This petition, and the Mozilla blog post someone linked to upthread, are designed to make it look like Mozilla did everything they could prior to capitulating. Of course it's dumb. They should just say they won't do it. Presumably their desire to continue operating in France is a lot stronger than their dedication to the principles involved and that is why they are taking this approach.
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    The only reason to spend resources supporting this abandoned browser is because it claims to stand up for our rights. The day it stops is the day supporting it becomes meaningless. Mozilla made a lot of stupid decisions in the past but if they do this, I'm finally dropping firefox when I test my sites.
jcarrano 3y ago
Someone please explain: if I fork Firefox or Chrome and delete the censorship code, then I publish it online (eg. in github with a download link), then next time I go to France I will get into trouble?
- zb3 3y ago
  Next step: mandating compiler vendors to modify compilers so that your code doesn't compile :)
  - stackedinserter 3y ago
    It's easier to mandate hardware manufacturers to run only approved and properly signed code. Oh wait, we're almost there yet.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    Better yet: you'll need a license to compile code.
    - Night_Thastus 3y ago
      Ya have a loisence for that gcc?
      - superkuh 3y ago
        RMS is always right and decades ahead (about software freedoms issues): https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
  - jcarrano 3y ago
    Is it a law of history that those who seemed crazy ended up being right? I remember reading a couple writings by Stallman and it sounded quite outlandish and exaggerate then. Not anymore. See, e.g. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html Oddly enough, the French government has contributed quite substantially to free software.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
Would be good for some context about what happens if they don't comply.
bradley13 3y ago
How do they expect to enforce this? Especially against open-source browsers, or companies without a presence in France? One disadvantage of globalization is that you get to see the dumb ideas of all politicians. Somehow, the good ideas don't cumulate the same way...
- bachmeier 3y ago
  > How do they expect to enforce this? Especially against open-source browsers, or companies without a presence in France? I don't have an answer to your question, but China seems to be successful with the internet censorship thing.
  - ImJamal 3y ago
    China doesn't do their censoring on the browser level though?
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    > China seems to be successful with the internet censorship thing. Domestically sure but I see stuff about the Tiananmen Square massacre and even whinny the pooh all the time. I don't even go out of my way to look for it.
- shaoonb 3y ago
  Presumably they could ban the sites that host these non-compliant browsers (whack-a-mole for sure), and/or make it illegal to have one installed on your computer.
- stackedinserter 3y ago
  They can ban it from appstore/googleplay, with the provision that it should be banned for ALL countries, or else.
  - LocalH 3y ago
    Or else what? What ability would any country have to demand that an app be removed from offer outside of their jurisdiction?
taylodl 3y ago
Serious question - can governments put mandates on open source software? How would that work? How could it work?
- p0w3n3d 3y ago
  banning software, mass surveillance, mandatory software installed on people's computers
  - taylodl 3y ago
    Sure, they can regulate the behaviors of the people using the software, but what means do they have for regulating the software itself?
    - karaterobot 3y ago
      Mozilla does business in France, I believe. They have an office in Paris, and likely employ French people. So, they could be regulated like any other business, and punished like any other business. Since Mozilla make the software, the software can be regulated.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- popcorncowboy 3y ago
  Of course. Legislature can pass any laws it decides to. Open source software doesn't get some free-pass that allows it to dodge laws. Yes of course you can ignore, disagree and break laws. But they can and will come after you.
  - slotrans 3y ago
    Come after who? And how?
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    > But they can and will come after you No they can't and won't. Though they will grab you if you go to them.
KingOfCoders 3y ago
I'd wish people would not through the word "censor" around that casually. Take a deeper look into e.G. cold war Eastern European countries to see what censorship is.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  is not a government provided blacklist of certain newspapers /books/websites you are not allowed to read that they can update at any time at least a little concerning?
indymike 3y ago
The best solution would be to simply take Firefox off the market in France should this happen. If France wants browsers to work through the government, they can fund it, build it, and make laws to force people to use it.
- SCLeo 3y ago
  I am actually not sure if this is satire, but in case it is not, I don't think Firefox is in the position to boycott France, when Google Chrome exists, and is very likely to comply with the new law.
  - indymike 3y ago
    The rest of the world is enough.
- runeks 3y ago
  Even better: keep allowing the French people to download Firefox while ignoring this law
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    I'd set up a simple page that blocks downloads while not doing much else to stop use in France. That way, you comply with the law by not offering it to the french while also allowing anyone there to use it if they want.
_trampeltier 3y ago
How should it work, every browser has to download a list with forbidden sites from the french government first? Like a public open "bad sites" list?
- xnorswap 3y ago
  The technology already exists based around hashes rather than a list of actual sites. As with encryption bans, to stop this requires a political effort, not technological sneering and naysaying.
  - pnt12 3y ago
    A list of hashes instead of hosts would be even worse, as it the blocking would be the same, just with reduced transparency. Every time they would add new hashes, people would need to investigate which websites they correspond to. Quite evil.
utybo 3y ago
As far as I understand it, this is only about implementing a blocklist for scam and phishing sites, like what Edge's SmartScreen already does. The agency in charge of this, Arcom, will have to comply to that requirement. While the principle in itself isn't great, this isn't as bad as Mozilla or comments on HN make it look like.
- darreninthenet 3y ago
  Isn't the issue though that such laws are usually abused so a website spreading "misinformation/fake news" about the government is labelled a "scam"...?
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    It’s coming from the same crowd as the anti crypto people, ie. we need KYC and transaction tracking to prevent fraud and terrorist funding! But we might as well use those facilities to go after privacy coins and arrest people for trading derivatives with their own money. It’s a classic case of “we’re here to help, please don’t resist”.
  - utybo 3y ago
    Doesn't seem to apply to this law. IANAL but after a quick check of the proposed law text, it is directly referencing French laws about scamming, and only allows the blocking procedure if the government agency finds these sites to be in violation of those laws. Once again I have not fully checked this as the text is very long.
  - conradfr 3y ago
    Well, look at the EU level https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/nternational-rights-groups-thierry-breton-you-need-make-clear-under-dsa-states https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/nternational-rights-gr...
- skywal_l 3y ago
  If these sites are scams or fishing, then the law should pursue them and put them in jail.
alphanullmeric 3y ago
Good. We will see how many supporters of “stopping misinformation” are willing to be subjected to their own rules.
- cubefox 3y ago
  The "misinformation" that is blocked might be just of a type that is politically convenient to be blocked for those people.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    all the way until it isnt. I strongly think that many people are cheering for the pendulum to be pulled sooo far to one direction, that they will have a total chock when it inevitably goes the other direction again
    - nta6rmrawmnrsth 3y ago
      I wish, but every totalitarian government in history has had plenty of citizens supporting it, many supporting it simply wanted their fellow citizens to feel the same pain they are forced to feel. "If I had to live this way, so do you". Human instinct. In our society, a divide is forming between the "knowledge" and the "labor". Why should a laborer need unfiltered knowledge? And why does you and your family deserve to be in the "knowledge" group anyways?
sylware 3y ago
Big Tech at work with french admninistration insiders.
travisgriggs 3y ago
I’m opposed to censorship. But what is even dumber is misapplied censorship. “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root” — Henry David Thoreau Rather than building guardrails on the dangerous corners, we seem to revel in building hospitals at the bottoms of ravines. We treat symptoms and side effects, rather than origins. If they insist on suppressing content, do so at the servers serving the content, not arbitrary viewers.
lm28469 3y ago
I'd really really like them to quote the exact part of the law proposition about "censoring websites" because I read the whole text and didn't find anything remotely as sensational as what mozilla claims > providing a playbook for other governments to also turn browsers like Firefox into censorship tools. Iran, China, Russia, didn't wait for France don't worry
anordal 3y ago
France should have listened to GNU/Stallman: You can't have an antifeature in free software. If you try, someone is just going to comment it out.
- krono 3y ago
  Liberté, égalité, fraternité but for real
- criddell 3y ago
  It doesn't need to be impossible to remove, just illegal to do so. It's like cars - you can driver faster than the speed limit, but if you get caught doing so, you may be punished.
  - noman-land 3y ago
    Unlike cars, going to website happens alone in your house.
- no_time 3y ago
  >You can't have an antifeature in free software. If you try, someone is just going to comment it out. Reminds how Okular by default obeys PDF DRM, but you can just simply untick it as an option in the settings if you want to. In an ideal scenario, all software would have that tickbox.
snvzz 3y ago
This is at the level where EU should intervene.
- BitwiseFool 3y ago
  Let the War of the Eighth Coalition begin!
5mv2 3y ago
Here’s the full article: https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser-website-blocking/ https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser...
ucarion 3y ago
Article from Le Monde: https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vote-a-l-unanimite-un-projet-de-loi-pour-securiser-et-reguler-l-espace-numerique_6180758_4408996.html https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vo... https://archive.li/krUfW https://archive.li/krUfW > To prevent multiple attempts at scams by e-mail or SMS, the bill must also allow the establishment of a free "anti-scam filter" sending a warning message to anyone who is about to to go to a site identified as malicious.
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  So, they're going to generously allow users to continue to install uBlock Origin?
pengaru 3y ago
The more people accept walled-gardens as their normal computing experience, the more we'll see the powers viewing end-user software as something they can control. Stop computing this way people. Use and support FOSS software first, not last.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
Until 1999 (had to look it up) france completely banned "unlicensed" use of encryption. Even to the extent that if you had a windows NT server and changed the region to france, it would replace your hashed password with a plaintext version when you next logged in. So, there is a history of boneheaded tech laws.
- anthk 3y ago
  Even xor with rot13?
  - extraduder_ire 3y ago
    I believe that would count, yes.
stainablesteel 3y ago
There's no basis for blocking a web browser that doesn't comply. If Mozilla came out and said "nah", what exactly would the french government do? ban that web browser? demand every website accessed via france check if someone is running a banned web browser? the absurdity would spiral out of control on its own, it seems best to ignore this so that the europeans can take an official L on regulating web content.
- advisedwang 3y ago
  I don't know French law, but some options: * Arrest Mozilla officials if they travel to France * Seize or prevent donations made in France * Seize or prevent the Google-search-is-the-default for French portion of queries * Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US
  - Zuiii 3y ago
    > Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US If I was a browser vendor, I'd wait for this. The US will never allow it.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > * Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US That’s not what the WTO does.
totorovirus 3y ago
lol Korea achieved government censorship by blocking certain websites by sni headers without any announcement. I wish we had those dumb politicians like France does. It is actually a good thing that old dudes who are clueless about tech are high up. This kind of meager understanding of tech in especially in Europe make me wonder how the life of those old politicians would be like. They are still living in pre tech-boom era, where rich people paid someone else to do the chores for them. They don't even need to know the latest tech advancements because they have so much "old-money" to live like in 90s, which means they were born rich european and will remain rich european for rest of their lives.
- popcorncowboy 3y ago
  You do wish. Because in countries that pay even passing pretense to rule of law and democractic systems, regardless of how you may disparage the idiots in charge, this is how it works. They pass laws. They don't just fuck you in the ass.
benbristow 3y ago
I don't get how this would ever work, apart from preinstalled/precompiled or proprietary browsers? Just grab a copy from another country, or someone can create a script to download the source code, patch out the offending censor code and then compile the browser from source - it's not like it's hard to install dev tools anymore. Or even just distribute the uncensored binaries. Chromium and Firefox are both open-source.
- ChadNauseam 3y ago
  It doesn't need to be 100% effective, it just needs to be inconvenient enough that most users don't bother
- zamadatix 3y ago
  I'm not sure any method of censorship is considered on the basis it's 100% effective or not. The kinds of things you listed are additional hurdles most people either won't know or won't bother to deal with for all but the most extreme types of censorship (e.g. blocking something like Facebook or YouTube wholesale).

555 points by Raed667 3y ago

debacle 3y ago

Firefox is open source. Bonne chance.

some_random 3y ago
So what? So it Chromium but that doesn't stop Google from pushing whatever anti-consumer nonsense they want.
- debacle 3y ago
  ...and you can get Chromium without Google, easily, because it's open source. https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium
  - cobalt60 3y ago
    So yeah Google devs pushed WEI into chromium just a month ago
    - Zuiii 3y ago
      And? GP's point still stands.

Raed667 3y ago

Link to the proposed bill (French) https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000047533100/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000...

tgv 3y ago
I plugged it in deepl.com: The Minister for the Economy, Finance and Industrial and Digital Sovereignty and the Minister attached to the Minister for the Economy, Finance and Industrial and Digital Sovereignty, responsible for the Digital Transition and Telecommunications, have presented the bill to secure and regulate the digital space (SREN) in order to restore the confidence necessary for the success of the digital transition. With this bill, France is adopting a range of bold and unprecedented practical measures aimed at strengthening public order in the digital environment. The result of interministerial work led by Jean-Noël Barrot, the bill contains some twenty proposals aimed in particular at : - implement an anti-scam cybersecurity filter to protect the French against attempts to access their personal or bank details fraudulently for malicious purposes, which have increased in number in recent years; - strengthen penalties for people convicted of cyberbullying, a phenomenon that is spreading on social networks; - strengthen the system for enforcing online age limits for access to pornographic sites, to better protect our children; - penalise sites that fail to remove online child pornography content; - restore commercial fairness to the cloud market, which is currently concentrated in the hands of a handful of players.

ltadeut 3y ago

It would be nice if Mozilla would add more context around it. That said, it’s freaking exhausting how these dumb actions keep being taken by governments all over the world. It seems like every month there’s some new crap going on

polotics 3y ago
Yes indeed! is this enforced DRM everywhere or you can't browse? is this a forced french MITM certificate chain you can't remove, is this something else? how does using Tor with a non-french exit node get impacted? If I ssh over port 80 or any other to a french-located box does something change?
- bonzini 3y ago
  It seems to be a version of safe browsing that is mandated by law to be a full block rather than a warning. It will be very easy to bypass, making this a very stupid law. It's slightly more worrisome that the law doesn't include any privacy protection measures, but the GDPR still applies and whoever runs the checking service has to comply with it since the browsing history is personal data.
  - Calamitous 3y ago
    > It will be very easy to bypass, making this a very stupid law. It’s not about being effective, it’s about making things illegal. It’s trivially easy to break the speed limit, but that doesn’t stop local police using it to collect millions of dollars of fines every year
    - bonzini 3y ago
      It doesn't seem that the law makes it illegal to use a browser that bypasses the block, unless the content was already illegal.
antoinebalaine 3y ago
Here's the context: the fr gov's been acting against national interest for more than 20 years in a row. The people know it. The gov knows the people know. The gov wants to pretend it's not doing anything wrong. It could keep pretending credibly, if only people would keep their trap shut on the web. So now gov wants to control what people can see and say on the web.

fluidcruft 3y ago

I have less than zero idea what's going on here? I understand the broad topic but exactly what is France demanding? A list of blocked URLs browsers should refuse to render? A list of IPs that are forbidden (doesn't make sense since that can be handled at ISP or OS level). Blocked words/phrases (trivially bypassed by people who have the list and can iterate on text until allowed)? Blocked links? Input fields that prevent certain words from being posted? French Academy policing use of loanwords and requiring use of the blessed words? What exactly is this about?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sinuhe69 3y ago
https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser-website-blocking/ https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser...
btilly 3y ago
They want a way for a government provided list to block URLs on your browser. I predict that hackers will find a way to replace the government list with their own in 3, 2, 1...
- rvnx 3y ago
  Google Safebrowsing is very rarely compromised (except indirectly when Gaia was hacked at Google), this can be the same mechanism.
- bonzini 3y ago
  Replace hackers with users.

polski-g 3y ago

If Mozilla doesn't have employees or a nexus in France, they could just ignore this law.

dralley 3y ago
They have an office in Paris IIRC
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Zuiii 3y ago
  Close it up.

mkl95 3y ago

The French government's approach to modern tech is similar to the UK and Germany in some ways. They seem to be advised by a bunch of decrepit dudes who stopped learning about computers before the OSI model was created.

tasogare 3y ago
There're a bunch of corrupted inviduals with no counter power to keep them in check. No decisions are made for the benefit of the French people since a long time, every law passed is either to augment their power, rise taxes (already world top 1 or 2 depending on the year) or to the benefit their friends owning private companies. Of course technology freedom will suffer from this as well.
- rvnx 3y ago
  Well if majority votes for them, it's important to respect the choice of the voters, even if you don't like their choice because you have other interests that you want to defend. The opposition in France are far from being angels, it's very similar to Democrats vs Republican situation in France (except Gauche vs Droite).
  - binary132 3y ago
    What limits are you willing to place on this? Majorities can and do vote for monsters.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Not only that, it's common to have a ballot that only presents a choice between two monsters. It's your fault if you vote for one and it's your fault if you stay home. Maybe the problem is systemic? Checks and balances that get eroded during populist waves, stay that way when the monster comes.
- TacticalCoder 3y ago
  > ... or to the benefit their friends owning private companies. Yup this one in France is really a big problem. The public sector spendings officially represents something like 58.1% of the french GDP (official "Insee" numbers from 2023, for 2022)... France is not far from a planned economy and, unsurprisingly, it's a particularly harsh environment for real small private SMEs (i.e. those without friends at the state) and for entrepreneurs, for they're getting trounced by taxes. And that gigantic state (percentage wise of the GDP, not on the world stage) still cannot prevent days of riots and drug-dealers from ruling the streets (like in the city of Marseille). A deeply corrupt state where public servants are planted so that taxes can grow and, in return, the people don't even get safe streets. But all is fine and well for these corrupt politicians because soon they'll be able to prevent comments such as yours or mine from being read by anyone.

dist-epoch 3y ago

[flagged]

raverbashing 3y ago
Last I've heard the web browser was invented in Switzerland, as opposed to Gopher (US invented) which ended up unused
- polotics 3y ago
  Let's pick elementary particle sized nits... Tim Berner Lee's office most likely had noise from planes landing at Geneva airport, but still most likely was on the territory of France :-)
  - lbalazscs 3y ago
    Indeed. > The Franco-Swiss border runs through the CERN campus and building 31 is literally just a few feet into France. However, there is no explicit border within CERN and the main entrance is in Switzerland, so the situation of which country it was invented in is actually quite a tricky one. The current commemorative plaque, which is outside a row of offices where people other than Tim Berners-Lee worked on the web, is in Switzerland. To add to the confusion, in case Tim thought of the web at home, his home was in France but he temporarily moved to rented accommodation in Switzerland, just around the time the web was developed. https://davidgalbraith.org/uncategorized/the-exact-location-where-the-web-was-invented/2343/ https://davidgalbraith.org/uncategorized/the-exact-location-...
- charonn0 3y ago
  All modern web browsers descend directly or indirectly from Netscape.
anthk 3y ago
The browser was invented in Europe.
- 3y ago

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

I thought they wanted "more than deplatforming" https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat... https://archive.today/ia2z4 https://archive.today/ia2z4

myko 3y ago
Everything in that blog post looks reasonable, unlike what France is looking to do
- redeeman 3y ago
  yeah, I do agree that it was very reprehensible of trump to tell people to go home and be peaceful. I mean, how incompetent can he be? he spends all the effort scheming and plotting to illegitimately take over the government, capture the capital, and overthrow the good men and women working there, only to then go and screw it up at the end by telling people to PEACEFULLY make their voices heard, and then double down on this monumental screwup, by telling them to go home???? my god how stupid can trump be.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
  Mozilla wants to stop "disinformation". France's excuse of fraud doesn't exactly overlap but what is fraud other than disinformation with a goal of direct monetary gain? Mozilla also don't say who will be the ultimate arbiter so France is answering. Mozilla want transparency of how bad things are dealt with and France is giving a clear list and telling them how to do it. Exactly the same way as Mozilla celebrates by ensuring nobody can see the bad thing. This may sound like I support what France is proposing. I don't. However I'm not French so I don't get a say. I thoroughly enjoy the hypocrisy of Mozilla's statements on these matters. "Stop Bad Things." "No not like that!"
goodbyesf 3y ago
Exactly. Mozilla is one of the worst tech companies pretending to do good. Tech wasn't always like this. In the 00s, everyone was for free speech. Mozilla wasn't like this either. Hate to say it, but once the tech elite ( or more like the money elite controlling tech ) started talking about minority, lgbt and women's 'rights', they all started censoring, deplatforming, oppressing. Of course to fight 'hate speech' - whatever that means. It's like someone or some group flipped a switch and everyone from business to politics started singing a different tune. Once again, everything we accuse china of, we are. China has a single party controlled media right? How is it that one day, every commercial and media suddenly became so 'diverse'? Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. Just asking who flipped the switch?

SkySkimmer 3y ago

>It would set a dangerous precedent This seems to be false as the precedent already exists. sources: Étude d'impact (PDF linked in https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000047533100/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/dossierlegislatif/JORFDOLE000...) says >Par ses modalités, ce dispositif est à rapprocher du dispositif de filtrage prévu au 1° de l’article L. 521-3-1 du code de la consommation, permettant aux agents de la DGCCRF d’ordonner, selon des conditions et modalités particulières, aux opérateurs de plateformes en ligne, aux fournisseurs d’accès à internet ainsi qu’aux exploitants de navigateurs internet d’afficher un message avertissant les consommateurs du risque de préjudice encouru s’ils accèdent au contenu manifestement illicite, et au b du 2° du même article, qui leur permet d’ordonner à ces mêmes opérateurs et aux hébergeurs de prendre toute mesure utile destinée à limiter l’accès à ces contenus. Article L. 521-3-1 du code de la consommation: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000042615686 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...

_trackno5 3y ago
It’s absurd that an article exists to allow French govt agents to display messages in my browser. How is that even enforced?
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Rules exist to require messages be shown on phones - for example the emergency alert system for hurricanes. Doesn't seem unreasonable that computer OS's and/or web browsers be required to support the same.
  - _trackno5 3y ago
    Sure, we can all agree that this narrow use is in the interest of the public. Emphasis on narrow. It’s completely unreasonable to have a broad scope direct communication channel between the government and my browser or OS.
    - londons_explore 3y ago

maxwell 3y ago

Petition? Mozilla should just ban usage in France if they pass this merd.

fdgjgbdfhgb 3y ago
_merde_!
- maxwell 3y ago
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merd#English https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merd#English
stefncb 3y ago
And what would that do, exactly? The government wouldn't care. In fact, they would probably be better off for it because everyone would simply switch to Chrome and there's one less browser to deal with. The only thing you'll do is make the problem worse and take away choice from the French people who want nothing to do with this bs.
- maxwell 3y ago
  I'm saying they update their terms to prohibit compliance with censorship (specifically defined in line with the French bill's text), not impose geo restrictions or attempt legal enforcement. Building out censorship functionality doesn't really seem viable for Firefox's future worldwide.

kgwxd 3y ago

How can France force them? Just don’t do it.

alexisns 3y ago
well otherwise France can ask its ISP's to just block Mozilla in France if it doesn't comply
- planede 3y ago
  And also block 3rd party (linux distro) repositories that also ship Firefox?
  - anthk 3y ago
    Inria for sure would love that /s... The week after Guix-HPC users see their Hydras blocked, the goverment it's fucked over by a call from "a big boss" from corpos relying on reproducible scientific materials and the guy who did that "great idea" fired in the spot to save up some asses (and Euros).
justin66 3y ago
This petition, and the Mozilla blog post someone linked to upthread, are designed to make it look like Mozilla did everything they could prior to capitulating. Of course it's dumb. They should just say they won't do it. Presumably their desire to continue operating in France is a lot stronger than their dedication to the principles involved and that is why they are taking this approach.
- Zuiii 3y ago
  The only reason to spend resources supporting this abandoned browser is because it claims to stand up for our rights. The day it stops is the day supporting it becomes meaningless. Mozilla made a lot of stupid decisions in the past but if they do this, I'm finally dropping firefox when I test my sites.

jcarrano 3y ago

Someone please explain: if I fork Firefox or Chrome and delete the censorship code, then I publish it online (eg. in github with a download link), then next time I go to France I will get into trouble?

zb3 3y ago
Next step: mandating compiler vendors to modify compilers so that your code doesn't compile :)
- stackedinserter 3y ago
  It's easier to mandate hardware manufacturers to run only approved and properly signed code. Oh wait, we're almost there yet.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  Better yet: you'll need a license to compile code.
  - Night_Thastus 3y ago
    Ya have a loisence for that gcc?
    - superkuh 3y ago
      RMS is always right and decades ahead (about software freedoms issues): https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- jcarrano 3y ago
  Is it a law of history that those who seemed crazy ended up being right? I remember reading a couple writings by Stallman and it sounded quite outlandish and exaggerate then. Not anymore. See, e.g. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html Oddly enough, the French government has contributed quite substantially to free software.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

Would be good for some context about what happens if they don't comply.

bradley13 3y ago

How do they expect to enforce this? Especially against open-source browsers, or companies without a presence in France? One disadvantage of globalization is that you get to see the dumb ideas of all politicians. Somehow, the good ideas don't cumulate the same way...

bachmeier 3y ago
> How do they expect to enforce this? Especially against open-source browsers, or companies without a presence in France? I don't have an answer to your question, but China seems to be successful with the internet censorship thing.
- ImJamal 3y ago
  China doesn't do their censoring on the browser level though?
- Zuiii 3y ago
  > China seems to be successful with the internet censorship thing. Domestically sure but I see stuff about the Tiananmen Square massacre and even whinny the pooh all the time. I don't even go out of my way to look for it.
shaoonb 3y ago
Presumably they could ban the sites that host these non-compliant browsers (whack-a-mole for sure), and/or make it illegal to have one installed on your computer.
stackedinserter 3y ago
They can ban it from appstore/googleplay, with the provision that it should be banned for ALL countries, or else.
- LocalH 3y ago
  Or else what? What ability would any country have to demand that an app be removed from offer outside of their jurisdiction?

taylodl 3y ago

Serious question - can governments put mandates on open source software? How would that work? How could it work?

p0w3n3d 3y ago
banning software, mass surveillance, mandatory software installed on people's computers
- taylodl 3y ago
  Sure, they can regulate the behaviors of the people using the software, but what means do they have for regulating the software itself?
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    Mozilla does business in France, I believe. They have an office in Paris, and likely employ French people. So, they could be regulated like any other business, and punished like any other business. Since Mozilla make the software, the software can be regulated.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
popcorncowboy 3y ago
Of course. Legislature can pass any laws it decides to. Open source software doesn't get some free-pass that allows it to dodge laws. Yes of course you can ignore, disagree and break laws. But they can and will come after you.
- slotrans 3y ago
  Come after who? And how?
- Zuiii 3y ago
  > But they can and will come after you No they can't and won't. Though they will grab you if you go to them.

KingOfCoders 3y ago

I'd wish people would not through the word "censor" around that casually. Take a deeper look into e.G. cold war Eastern European countries to see what censorship is.

RugnirViking 3y ago
is not a government provided blacklist of certain newspapers /books/websites you are not allowed to read that they can update at any time at least a little concerning?

indymike 3y ago

The best solution would be to simply take Firefox off the market in France should this happen. If France wants browsers to work through the government, they can fund it, build it, and make laws to force people to use it.

SCLeo 3y ago
I am actually not sure if this is satire, but in case it is not, I don't think Firefox is in the position to boycott France, when Google Chrome exists, and is very likely to comply with the new law.
- indymike 3y ago
  The rest of the world is enough.
runeks 3y ago
Even better: keep allowing the French people to download Firefox while ignoring this law
- Zuiii 3y ago
  I'd set up a simple page that blocks downloads while not doing much else to stop use in France. That way, you comply with the law by not offering it to the french while also allowing anyone there to use it if they want.

_trampeltier 3y ago

How should it work, every browser has to download a list with forbidden sites from the french government first? Like a public open "bad sites" list?

xnorswap 3y ago
The technology already exists based around hashes rather than a list of actual sites. As with encryption bans, to stop this requires a political effort, not technological sneering and naysaying.
- pnt12 3y ago
  A list of hashes instead of hosts would be even worse, as it the blocking would be the same, just with reduced transparency. Every time they would add new hashes, people would need to investigate which websites they correspond to. Quite evil.

utybo 3y ago

As far as I understand it, this is only about implementing a blocklist for scam and phishing sites, like what Edge's SmartScreen already does. The agency in charge of this, Arcom, will have to comply to that requirement. While the principle in itself isn't great, this isn't as bad as Mozilla or comments on HN make it look like.

darreninthenet 3y ago
Isn't the issue though that such laws are usually abused so a website spreading "misinformation/fake news" about the government is labelled a "scam"...?
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  It’s coming from the same crowd as the anti crypto people, ie. we need KYC and transaction tracking to prevent fraud and terrorist funding! But we might as well use those facilities to go after privacy coins and arrest people for trading derivatives with their own money. It’s a classic case of “we’re here to help, please don’t resist”.
- utybo 3y ago
  Doesn't seem to apply to this law. IANAL but after a quick check of the proposed law text, it is directly referencing French laws about scamming, and only allows the blocking procedure if the government agency finds these sites to be in violation of those laws. Once again I have not fully checked this as the text is very long.
- conradfr 3y ago
  Well, look at the EU level https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/nternational-rights-groups-thierry-breton-you-need-make-clear-under-dsa-states https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/nternational-rights-gr...
skywal_l 3y ago
If these sites are scams or fishing, then the law should pursue them and put them in jail.

alphanullmeric 3y ago

Good. We will see how many supporters of “stopping misinformation” are willing to be subjected to their own rules.

cubefox 3y ago
The "misinformation" that is blocked might be just of a type that is politically convenient to be blocked for those people.
- redeeman 3y ago
  all the way until it isnt. I strongly think that many people are cheering for the pendulum to be pulled sooo far to one direction, that they will have a total chock when it inevitably goes the other direction again
  - nta6rmrawmnrsth 3y ago
    I wish, but every totalitarian government in history has had plenty of citizens supporting it, many supporting it simply wanted their fellow citizens to feel the same pain they are forced to feel. "If I had to live this way, so do you". Human instinct. In our society, a divide is forming between the "knowledge" and the "labor". Why should a laborer need unfiltered knowledge? And why does you and your family deserve to be in the "knowledge" group anyways?

sylware 3y ago

Big Tech at work with french admninistration insiders.

travisgriggs 3y ago

I’m opposed to censorship. But what is even dumber is misapplied censorship. “There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root” — Henry David Thoreau Rather than building guardrails on the dangerous corners, we seem to revel in building hospitals at the bottoms of ravines. We treat symptoms and side effects, rather than origins. If they insist on suppressing content, do so at the servers serving the content, not arbitrary viewers.

lm28469 3y ago

I'd really really like them to quote the exact part of the law proposition about "censoring websites" because I read the whole text and didn't find anything remotely as sensational as what mozilla claims > providing a playbook for other governments to also turn browsers like Firefox into censorship tools. Iran, China, Russia, didn't wait for France don't worry

anordal 3y ago

France should have listened to GNU/Stallman: You can't have an antifeature in free software. If you try, someone is just going to comment it out.

krono 3y ago
Liberté, égalité, fraternité but for real
criddell 3y ago
It doesn't need to be impossible to remove, just illegal to do so. It's like cars - you can driver faster than the speed limit, but if you get caught doing so, you may be punished.
- noman-land 3y ago
  Unlike cars, going to website happens alone in your house.
no_time 3y ago
>You can't have an antifeature in free software. If you try, someone is just going to comment it out. Reminds how Okular by default obeys PDF DRM, but you can just simply untick it as an option in the settings if you want to. In an ideal scenario, all software would have that tickbox.

snvzz 3y ago

This is at the level where EU should intervene.

BitwiseFool 3y ago
Let the War of the Eighth Coalition begin!

5mv2 3y ago

Here’s the full article: https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser-website-blocking/ https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2023/06/26/france-browser...

ucarion 3y ago

Article from Le Monde: https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vote-a-l-unanimite-un-projet-de-loi-pour-securiser-et-reguler-l-espace-numerique_6180758_4408996.html https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2023/07/06/le-senat-vo... https://archive.li/krUfW https://archive.li/krUfW > To prevent multiple attempts at scams by e-mail or SMS, the bill must also allow the establishment of a free "anti-scam filter" sending a warning message to anyone who is about to to go to a site identified as malicious.

everybodyknows 3y ago
So, they're going to generously allow users to continue to install uBlock Origin?

pengaru 3y ago

The more people accept walled-gardens as their normal computing experience, the more we'll see the powers viewing end-user software as something they can control. Stop computing this way people. Use and support FOSS software first, not last.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

Until 1999 (had to look it up) france completely banned "unlicensed" use of encryption. Even to the extent that if you had a windows NT server and changed the region to france, it would replace your hashed password with a plaintext version when you next logged in. So, there is a history of boneheaded tech laws.

anthk 3y ago
Even xor with rot13?
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  I believe that would count, yes.

stainablesteel 3y ago

There's no basis for blocking a web browser that doesn't comply. If Mozilla came out and said "nah", what exactly would the french government do? ban that web browser? demand every website accessed via france check if someone is running a banned web browser? the absurdity would spiral out of control on its own, it seems best to ignore this so that the europeans can take an official L on regulating web content.

advisedwang 3y ago
I don't know French law, but some options: * Arrest Mozilla officials if they travel to France * Seize or prevent donations made in France * Seize or prevent the Google-search-is-the-default for French portion of queries * Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US
- Zuiii 3y ago
  > Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US If I was a browser vendor, I'd wait for this. The US will never allow it.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > * Use international venues like WTO to get a judgment enforceable in the US That’s not what the WTO does.

totorovirus 3y ago

lol Korea achieved government censorship by blocking certain websites by sni headers without any announcement. I wish we had those dumb politicians like France does. It is actually a good thing that old dudes who are clueless about tech are high up. This kind of meager understanding of tech in especially in Europe make me wonder how the life of those old politicians would be like. They are still living in pre tech-boom era, where rich people paid someone else to do the chores for them. They don't even need to know the latest tech advancements because they have so much "old-money" to live like in 90s, which means they were born rich european and will remain rich european for rest of their lives.

popcorncowboy 3y ago
You do wish. Because in countries that pay even passing pretense to rule of law and democractic systems, regardless of how you may disparage the idiots in charge, this is how it works. They pass laws. They don't just fuck you in the ass.

benbristow 3y ago

I don't get how this would ever work, apart from preinstalled/precompiled or proprietary browsers? Just grab a copy from another country, or someone can create a script to download the source code, patch out the offending censor code and then compile the browser from source - it's not like it's hard to install dev tools anymore. Or even just distribute the uncensored binaries. Chromium and Firefox are both open-source.

ChadNauseam 3y ago
It doesn't need to be 100% effective, it just needs to be inconvenient enough that most users don't bother
zamadatix 3y ago
I'm not sure any method of censorship is considered on the basis it's 100% effective or not. The kinds of things you listed are additional hurdles most people either won't know or won't bother to deal with for all but the most extreme types of censorship (e.g. blocking something like Facebook or YouTube wholesale).