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> The cheapest energy systems are the carbon free ones I would really like to believe this claim to be true. Unfortunately my recent real-world data points ga

> The cheapest energy systems are the carbon free ones I would really like to believe this claim to be true. Unfortunately my recent real-world data points gathered as a consumer while doing such mundane stuff as heating and powering my home and fueling my ageing vehicles leave me wondering what I'm missing. I'd love to drive an EV. I'd love to have PV at home. A geothermal heat pump would be nice, too. I just haven't got enough spare money to make any of these choices until they get considerably cheaper.

danans 3y ago
I think when they say "systems" they are referring to large grid scale energy generation systems, not what you can install at home, which is necessarily more expensive per unit energy than at grid scale.
dalyons 3y ago
Ok fair, but that has very little to do with utility sized energy production which I assume the OP is talking about.
- logifail 3y ago
  Well the OP claimed "Maintaining a fossil fuel based energy system will be more expensive and costly than switching to a carbon free economy. Every single delay in the transition is wasted money." The key question would be: expensive for whom? Take a look at "Why is cheap renewable electricity so expensive?"[0] (published last week) which details the changes in electricity generation in the UK: 'The proportion of electricity generated [..] by renewables has increased from 3% in 2000 to 42% in 2022, whereas the proportion generated by fossil fuels has decreased from 73% in 2000 to 41% in 2022' ...but thanks to marginal cost pricing consumers don't see this because... "The wholesale price of all electricity is set by the most expensive method of producing electricity, which is usually from burning gas" [0] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-electricity-so-expensive/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-...
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Wait, so you have this whole document you can produce about how renewable energy is cheaper, but you started with complaints about how it's not cheaper? Very odd. Almost as if you are not trying to argue based on data, but just being contrarian.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > renewable energy is cheaper Again: cheaper for whom? Are we talking producers or consumers? > Very odd Renewables being cheaper unfortunately doesn't mean the electricity consumers purchase will necessarily be cheaper, at least not if we use the current market approaches and rely on gas to top up what can't be provided elsewhere.
baq 3y ago
PV+storage with subsidies (which I count as the regulator pricing in positive externalities) should be economical in large parts of the world. Where do you live?
- logifail 3y ago
  Although household power prices have risen steadily over the last 20 years (and increased not so steadily in the last two!), PV feed-in tarifs have been falling relentlessly (see slide 41 from https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/de/documents/publications/studies/Photovoltaics-Report.pdf https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/de/documents/p... for specific data) so as far as I can tell, the ROI period for household PV still seems to be measured in decades.
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
You probably don't need a geothermal (i.e. ground source) heat pump. They rarely make financial sense against modern air source heat pumps. Spend the saved money from digging on insulation and PV instead.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> I just haven't got enough spare money to make any of these choices No, you haven’t got credit. Solar panels pay for themselves like 3 or 4 times 9n their lifespan. We had a period of zero-interest rates, we could have bought everyone solar panels. But our bankers are too busy playing with fictitious derivatives instead of providing favourable credit to honest homeowners for renewables investment.
- logifail 3y ago
  > But our bankers are too busy playing with [..] It's not clear that our politicians are actually particularly serious about change, either. The only big change I've noticed this side of the pond in the last year is that our drink cartons now have tethered plastic caps. OK, they're still made of bonded layers of cardboard, aluminium and polyethylene which make them hard work to recycle, and according to a 2021 German study indeed less than 1/3rd of them are actually recycled ... ...but at least now the hard-to-recycle plastic lids now stay attached to the empty and hard-to-recycle cartons! <sigh>

danans 3y ago

I think when they say "systems" they are referring to large grid scale energy generation systems, not what you can install at home, which is necessarily more expensive per unit energy than at grid scale.

dalyons 3y ago

Ok fair, but that has very little to do with utility sized energy production which I assume the OP is talking about.

logifail 3y ago
Well the OP claimed "Maintaining a fossil fuel based energy system will be more expensive and costly than switching to a carbon free economy. Every single delay in the transition is wasted money." The key question would be: expensive for whom? Take a look at "Why is cheap renewable electricity so expensive?"[0] (published last week) which details the changes in electricity generation in the UK: 'The proportion of electricity generated [..] by renewables has increased from 3% in 2000 to 42% in 2022, whereas the proportion generated by fossil fuels has decreased from 73% in 2000 to 41% in 2022' ...but thanks to marginal cost pricing consumers don't see this because... "The wholesale price of all electricity is set by the most expensive method of producing electricity, which is usually from burning gas" [0] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-electricity-so-expensive/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-...
- epistasis 3y ago
  Wait, so you have this whole document you can produce about how renewable energy is cheaper, but you started with complaints about how it's not cheaper? Very odd. Almost as if you are not trying to argue based on data, but just being contrarian.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > renewable energy is cheaper Again: cheaper for whom? Are we talking producers or consumers? > Very odd Renewables being cheaper unfortunately doesn't mean the electricity consumers purchase will necessarily be cheaper, at least not if we use the current market approaches and rely on gas to top up what can't be provided elsewhere.

baq 3y ago

PV+storage with subsidies (which I count as the regulator pricing in positive externalities) should be economical in large parts of the world. Where do you live?

logifail 3y ago
Although household power prices have risen steadily over the last 20 years (and increased not so steadily in the last two!), PV feed-in tarifs have been falling relentlessly (see slide 41 from https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/de/documents/publications/studies/Photovoltaics-Report.pdf https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/de/documents/p... for specific data) so as far as I can tell, the ROI period for household PV still seems to be measured in decades.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

You probably don't need a geothermal (i.e. ground source) heat pump. They rarely make financial sense against modern air source heat pumps. Spend the saved money from digging on insulation and PV instead.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> I just haven't got enough spare money to make any of these choices No, you haven’t got credit. Solar panels pay for themselves like 3 or 4 times 9n their lifespan. We had a period of zero-interest rates, we could have bought everyone solar panels. But our bankers are too busy playing with fictitious derivatives instead of providing favourable credit to honest homeowners for renewables investment.

logifail 3y ago
> But our bankers are too busy playing with [..] It's not clear that our politicians are actually particularly serious about change, either. The only big change I've noticed this side of the pond in the last year is that our drink cartons now have tethered plastic caps. OK, they're still made of bonded layers of cardboard, aluminium and polyethylene which make them hard work to recycle, and according to a 2021 German study indeed less than 1/3rd of them are actually recycled ... ...but at least now the hard-to-recycle plastic lids now stay attached to the empty and hard-to-recycle cartons! <sigh>