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> Were any of us really ignorant of that? Apparently a lot of people in this thread are, yes. Because a bunch of people are all talking about "nuance" and how

by stale2002 3y ago

> Were any of us really ignorant of that? Apparently a lot of people in this thread are, yes. Because a bunch of people are all talking about "nuance" and how it is good to hear from a real perspective of someone living in China. It's not a real perspective, and never was. It is instead one only optimized for saying what needs to be said to not get arrested. It colors everything that she has said or not said, and makes it impossible to take any argument or statement that she says at face value. > Why would you expect to have an honest debate with someone subject to rule by an authoritarian regime? Although this may seem obvious to us, it was never obvious to her fans and her huge social media following. Along with all the people who did get into debates and fights with her online (of which there were many!), who didn't realize that they were not engaging with honest good faith statements. People liked her for the things that she said, taken at face value, and not because of the real truth of the matter which is that all of it was written within the context of a culture of fear of arrest.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro China position from China isn't going to be popular, the anti China position from China is illegal).
- stale2002 3y ago
  > or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well Oh indeed they don't interact well with politics. Which is why it is surprising that she engaged in so many online fights about politics all the time. If she was just some hacker doing sexy hardware stuff then this would be nothing but a tragic story. But Naomi wasn't that. Instead, she was one of the most viral Chinese influencers (in western audiences at least) who talked about international politics constantly. She was the supposedly "nuanced" and "breath of fresh air" mainland influencer who was supposedly telling everyone in the west how things really were in China, from the 1st hand perspective of a someone living there. Thats wasn't true at all though. She supposedly had credibility to talk about these things. Or at least her fans thought she did. But, in retrospect, no such credibility or nuance ever existed given the context of her situation.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth?
  - xbar 3y ago
    This is healthy thinking. China might not be a place where there is any censorship, nor goons rounding up Uyghers, nor restrictions on travel, nor foreign-country-located police stations hounding ex-pats to return home under threat to their families. It could all be made up and China could be a free-thinking, free-speech paradise where an insufficient number of western visitors have realized that everyone is free to talk about fair elections and Winnie-the-Pooh and a Green Party winning control of the Chinese Parliament. That all sounds quite plausible. We should go and see.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      Right, because those are the only two options.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Yes, you finally get it. It really isn't that there are only two options, but the Chinese media pushes there are only two options! You are either pro-china and completely in line with the CCP's agenda and ideology, or you are an anti-china western-media following racist. No nuance or middle ground, or even moderate positions, are possible. The lack of any middle ground in the debate is toxic, and that is mostly due to the Chinese government's hardline position on the matter.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth? Having lived in China for 9 years, I'm pretty familiar with the US and Chinese media. They can both be biased in the way that media is biased, but one is actually not controlled by a single party while the other most definitely is (if you aren't sure, check out the differences between CNN and FoxNews). China prefers the narrative that the rest of the world is antagonistic against it and out to get it. In reality, it is just the CCP that is really unpopular, and its popularity wanes and ebs with however authoritarian it happens to be at the time. With an official approval rating of 140%, they are incredibly popular in China, at least.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro China position from China isn't going to be popular, the anti China position from China is illegal).

stale2002 3y ago
> or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well Oh indeed they don't interact well with politics. Which is why it is surprising that she engaged in so many online fights about politics all the time. If she was just some hacker doing sexy hardware stuff then this would be nothing but a tragic story. But Naomi wasn't that. Instead, she was one of the most viral Chinese influencers (in western audiences at least) who talked about international politics constantly. She was the supposedly "nuanced" and "breath of fresh air" mainland influencer who was supposedly telling everyone in the west how things really were in China, from the 1st hand perspective of a someone living there. Thats wasn't true at all though. She supposedly had credibility to talk about these things. Or at least her fans thought she did. But, in retrospect, no such credibility or nuance ever existed given the context of her situation.
jakelazaroff 3y ago
On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth?
- xbar 3y ago
  This is healthy thinking. China might not be a place where there is any censorship, nor goons rounding up Uyghers, nor restrictions on travel, nor foreign-country-located police stations hounding ex-pats to return home under threat to their families. It could all be made up and China could be a free-thinking, free-speech paradise where an insufficient number of western visitors have realized that everyone is free to talk about fair elections and Winnie-the-Pooh and a Green Party winning control of the Chinese Parliament. That all sounds quite plausible. We should go and see.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    Right, because those are the only two options.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Yes, you finally get it. It really isn't that there are only two options, but the Chinese media pushes there are only two options! You are either pro-china and completely in line with the CCP's agenda and ideology, or you are an anti-china western-media following racist. No nuance or middle ground, or even moderate positions, are possible. The lack of any middle ground in the debate is toxic, and that is mostly due to the Chinese government's hardline position on the matter.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth? Having lived in China for 9 years, I'm pretty familiar with the US and Chinese media. They can both be biased in the way that media is biased, but one is actually not controlled by a single party while the other most definitely is (if you aren't sure, check out the differences between CNN and FoxNews). China prefers the narrative that the rest of the world is antagonistic against it and out to get it. In reality, it is just the CCP that is really unpopular, and its popularity wanes and ebs with however authoritarian it happens to be at the time. With an official approval rating of 140%, they are incredibly popular in China, at least.