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Oh the irony of this happening to someone like Naomi Wu, given past things that she posts about. People should remember this any time they see an influencer li

by stale2002 3y ago

Oh the irony of this happening to someone like Naomi Wu, given past things that she posts about. People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China. The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time. It makes it difficult to argue with them or engage in good faith on topics of international politics when this is the real reason why they publicity say certain things.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China. > The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time. Were any of us really ignorant of that? It should be obvious that in China if you are an influencer, you are either pro-CCP (or at least avoid politics completely) or you are simply no longer an influencer. > It makes it difficult to argue with them or engage in good faith on topics of international politics when this is the real reason why they publicity say certain things. Again, I don't think anyone is surprised by this. Why would you expect to have an honest debate with someone subject to rule by an authoritarian regime?
- stale2002 3y ago
  > Were any of us really ignorant of that? Apparently a lot of people in this thread are, yes. Because a bunch of people are all talking about "nuance" and how it is good to hear from a real perspective of someone living in China. It's not a real perspective, and never was. It is instead one only optimized for saying what needs to be said to not get arrested. It colors everything that she has said or not said, and makes it impossible to take any argument or statement that she says at face value. > Why would you expect to have an honest debate with someone subject to rule by an authoritarian regime? Although this may seem obvious to us, it was never obvious to her fans and her huge social media following. Along with all the people who did get into debates and fights with her online (of which there were many!), who didn't realize that they were not engaging with honest good faith statements. People liked her for the things that she said, taken at face value, and not because of the real truth of the matter which is that all of it was written within the context of a culture of fear of arrest.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro China position from China isn't going to be popular, the anti China position from China is illegal).
    - stale2002 3y ago
      > or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well Oh indeed they don't interact well with politics. Which is why it is surprising that she engaged in so many online fights about politics all the time. If she was just some hacker doing sexy hardware stuff then this would be nothing but a tragic story. But Naomi wasn't that. Instead, she was one of the most viral Chinese influencers (in western audiences at least) who talked about international politics constantly. She was the supposedly "nuanced" and "breath of fresh air" mainland influencer who was supposedly telling everyone in the west how things really were in China, from the 1st hand perspective of a someone living there. Thats wasn't true at all though. She supposedly had credibility to talk about these things. Or at least her fans thought she did. But, in retrospect, no such credibility or nuance ever existed given the context of her situation.
    - jakelazaroff 3y ago
      On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth?
      - xbar 3y ago
        This is healthy thinking. China might not be a place where there is any censorship, nor goons rounding up Uyghers, nor restrictions on travel, nor foreign-country-located police stations hounding ex-pats to return home under threat to their families. It could all be made up and China could be a free-thinking, free-speech paradise where an insufficient number of western visitors have realized that everyone is free to talk about fair elections and Winnie-the-Pooh and a Green Party winning control of the Chinese Parliament. That all sounds quite plausible. We should go and see.
Everly_Pitts 3y ago
“Suspiciously silent”: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1660437276843970562 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166043727684397056... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1660442105897164801 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166044210589716480... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1499928925417328647 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/149992892541732864... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1664960241568546824 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166496024156854682... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1665187451818885120 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166518745181888512... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1519961559430090752 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151996155943009075...
- stale2002 3y ago
  Ironically you have proved my point with the very tweets that you posted. It's not illegal for people in China to get mad when they see a person randomly assaulted on the street, or mad about things in general that are happening in China. That's not the kind of stuff that will get you silenced. Instead, it is other topics. For example, if the perpetrator in those tweets had happened to be a high up/protected government official, in the national party, well then I assure you that you would have seen some suspicious silence. Censorship in China is much more complicated than the false position that has been ascribed to me here, which would be "nobody in China can be upset about anything".
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Yeah it’s such a weird critique from GP, who elsewhere acknowledge that she had “credibility” for a “nuanced” perspective. The reason people thought that is that she was actually often vocally critical of China as well!

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> People should remember this any time they see an influencer living in China who is highly critical of the west and yet suspiciously silent on issues within China. > The answer is, of course, that as soon as one of these influencers cross the line they or their family get threatened with jail time. Were any of us really ignorant of that? It should be obvious that in China if you are an influencer, you are either pro-CCP (or at least avoid politics completely) or you are simply no longer an influencer. > It makes it difficult to argue with them or engage in good faith on topics of international politics when this is the real reason why they publicity say certain things. Again, I don't think anyone is surprised by this. Why would you expect to have an honest debate with someone subject to rule by an authoritarian regime?

stale2002 3y ago
> Were any of us really ignorant of that? Apparently a lot of people in this thread are, yes. Because a bunch of people are all talking about "nuance" and how it is good to hear from a real perspective of someone living in China. It's not a real perspective, and never was. It is instead one only optimized for saying what needs to be said to not get arrested. It colors everything that she has said or not said, and makes it impossible to take any argument or statement that she says at face value. > Why would you expect to have an honest debate with someone subject to rule by an authoritarian regime? Although this may seem obvious to us, it was never obvious to her fans and her huge social media following. Along with all the people who did get into debates and fights with her online (of which there were many!), who didn't realize that they were not engaging with honest good faith statements. People liked her for the things that she said, taken at face value, and not because of the real truth of the matter which is that all of it was written within the context of a culture of fear of arrest.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Most people are out there to consume rather mundane material on pop culture, whatever dance is popular on TikTok, or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well, and probably don't need to. And ya, any content that we consume from China is going to be the variety that doesn't touch politics due to selection bias (the pro China position from China isn't going to be popular, the anti China position from China is illegal).
  - stale2002 3y ago
    > or perhaps someone who is hacking hardware in a bikini. These are pretty entertaining subjects that don't intersect with politics very well Oh indeed they don't interact well with politics. Which is why it is surprising that she engaged in so many online fights about politics all the time. If she was just some hacker doing sexy hardware stuff then this would be nothing but a tragic story. But Naomi wasn't that. Instead, she was one of the most viral Chinese influencers (in western audiences at least) who talked about international politics constantly. She was the supposedly "nuanced" and "breath of fresh air" mainland influencer who was supposedly telling everyone in the west how things really were in China, from the 1st hand perspective of a someone living there. Thats wasn't true at all though. She supposedly had credibility to talk about these things. Or at least her fans thought she did. But, in retrospect, no such credibility or nuance ever existed given the context of her situation.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    On the other hand, consider that if you’re in the US your own information most likely comes from sources that are antagonistic to China? Why are you so sure that other people are just mindlessly consuming while you’re getting the real truth?
    - xbar 3y ago
      This is healthy thinking. China might not be a place where there is any censorship, nor goons rounding up Uyghers, nor restrictions on travel, nor foreign-country-located police stations hounding ex-pats to return home under threat to their families. It could all be made up and China could be a free-thinking, free-speech paradise where an insufficient number of western visitors have realized that everyone is free to talk about fair elections and Winnie-the-Pooh and a Green Party winning control of the Chinese Parliament. That all sounds quite plausible. We should go and see.

Everly_Pitts 3y ago

“Suspiciously silent”: https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1660437276843970562 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166043727684397056... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1660442105897164801 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166044210589716480... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1499928925417328647 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/149992892541732864... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1664960241568546824 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166496024156854682... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1665187451818885120 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/166518745181888512... https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1519961559430090752 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151996155943009075...

stale2002 3y ago
Ironically you have proved my point with the very tweets that you posted. It's not illegal for people in China to get mad when they see a person randomly assaulted on the street, or mad about things in general that are happening in China. That's not the kind of stuff that will get you silenced. Instead, it is other topics. For example, if the perpetrator in those tweets had happened to be a high up/protected government official, in the national party, well then I assure you that you would have seen some suspicious silence. Censorship in China is much more complicated than the false position that has been ascribed to me here, which would be "nobody in China can be upset about anything".
jakelazaroff 3y ago
Yeah it’s such a weird critique from GP, who elsewhere acknowledge that she had “credibility” for a “nuanced” perspective. The reason people thought that is that she was actually often vocally critical of China as well!