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Call me cynical, but I think the Tik Tok banning efforts are an example of such a successful lobbying effort from the part of US-based social media companies. I

Call me cynical, but I think the Tik Tok banning efforts are an example of such a successful lobbying effort from the part of US-based social media companies. It has yet to be brought to my attention what behaviors/patterns Tik Tok employs which set them apart from their US-based competitors, and I am in awe of how META/Alphabet have some nicely created this wedge based on their nationality to use as a cudgel against one of their biggest competitors. It smells to me a little bit like the LIV/PGA thing, where the Saudi Arabia connection was heavily publicized for the upstart tour as a reason to fight against the potential rival to the PGA. Then, of course, they merged. Interesting to see what the endgame will be for Tik Tok's case.

RandallBrown 3y ago
> what behaviors/patterns Tik Tok employs which set them apart from their US-based competitors Isn't it based on concerns that TikTok could be spying for China?
- ok123456 3y ago
  Based on what? The practices of all these social media companies seems the same and is dictated by the capabilities of devices and by the market.
  - decremental 3y ago
    [dead]
  - RandallBrown 3y ago
    I think it's sort of assumed that most large companies in China, if not totally controlled by the government, are at least heavily involved with it. So even if Meta or Google are collecting info, it's not for the Chinese government (and being US based, the US Government has a bit more say in what they do.)
    - ok123456 3y ago
      People raise the same objection about American tech companies given the open door relationship that seems to be between going from the intelligence community to being in a position of power in those companies. Should every other country ban American tech?
      - RandallBrown 3y ago
        It depends on how much you view the government as a "bad guy". Being an American, I would say other countries have less to worry about than with the Chinese government. Of course I don't really know and have no strong opinion about places banning TikTok. In general I think it's a pretty silly policy.
      - nonameiguess 3y ago
        Sure, but this is a question about an American government banning services. Clearly, American governments are not concerned that they might be leaking data to their own intelligence services. They're doing that on purpose. There is nothing out of the ordinary about a government banning foreign espionage even though they carry out their own espionage. That is basic statecraft, not really the gotcha some people on Hacker News seem to think it is.
        ok123456 3y ago
        Except there's no credible espionage from china through TikTok, but Twitter was used to destabilize middle-eastern governments which lead to a refugee crisis in Europe.
      - goodbyesf 3y ago
        > Should every other country ban American tech? Every american tech? No. Every american social media, yes. Especially the major countries. Why india hasn't banned foreign social media is beyond me. What's the point of banning tiktok but not facebook, twitter, etc?
- remarkEon 3y ago
  I think those are the boilerplate concerns. The real concerns are that TikTok is a dopamine manipulation system that’s better than anything Meta et al could even hope to dream up, and this system can be/is used to influence public opinion and general societal preferences.
sieabahlpark 3y ago
[dead]
tw04 3y ago
>It has yet to be brought to my attention what behaviors/patterns Tik Tok employs which set them apart from their US-based competitors Which of their US competitors voluntarily provide unfettered access to their data to the Chinese Military? https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/03/new-report-reveals-tiktok-parents-extensive-links-to-chinese-military-surveillance-complex/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/03/new-report-reveals-ti... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/new-zealand-bans-tiktok-parliament-australia-china-government/102110218 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/new-zealand-bans-tikt...
- misnome 3y ago
  TikTok provides unfettered data access to the US military?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- olyjohn 3y ago
  You've been fooled if you think that Facebook, Google are the ones who would be selling the data. Of course it's not them, it's the data brokers who get all the data from all the other US companies who are tracking every other thing we do. They will sell the data to anybody with money, including China. Even if the data brokers said they would never do that, I guarantee China can just set up a company in the US and straight up purchase the data outright.
  - tick_tock_tick 3y ago
    So what your saying is the USA social media companies behave completely differently?
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    Ah hah. But you see as long as there is one layer of indirection or more it's completely different. Somehow.
themagician 3y ago
The issue is not what they are doing but who is doing it. The scale and scope of applications like TikTok means that China can broadcast a message to basically all Americans 16-24 or so. And not just an announcement… they can use the algorithm and the feedback they receive to create groupthink for whatever they want. This would have been an absolute nightmare scenario during the Cold War. Imagine the US decides to start a war with China over, say, Taiwan. China will undoubtedly try to use TikTok to spread anti American sentiment and turn the youth against their own government.
- mantas 3y ago
  Sounds like Vietnam…
- stickfigure 3y ago
  > Imagine the US decides to start a war with China over, say, Taiwan. This is such a weird phrasing. The only people threatening to start a war is the leadership of China.
  - themagician 3y ago
    It’s really not. The US has a little bit of a history of starting wars. Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but you might want to look up what the US is doing in the Pacific right now. It not out territory. It’s not our fight. We should be minding our own business focusing on our own citizens, not militarizing the Pacific and denying a billion people access to advanced microchips every way possible.
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      So people in Taiwan have no say in what happens to them? > We should be minding our own business focusing on our own citizens, Yes, and part of that includes highly overdue reciprocal actions against a nation that has denied our citizens' businesses from flourishing there.
      - 3y ago
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
Reminder: TikTok also spends on lobbying https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/tiktok-bytedance-spent-millions-on-lobbying-congress.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/tiktok-bytedance-spent-milli...
jdeibele 3y ago
None of the US social media companies are allowed in China. It seems appropriate that a Chinese social media company would not be allowed in the US. Meta and X and Alphabet all would be in favor of that, sure, but that doesn't mean it's unfair.

RandallBrown 3y ago

> what behaviors/patterns Tik Tok employs which set them apart from their US-based competitors Isn't it based on concerns that TikTok could be spying for China?

ok123456 3y ago
Based on what? The practices of all these social media companies seems the same and is dictated by the capabilities of devices and by the market.
- decremental 3y ago
  [dead]
- RandallBrown 3y ago
  I think it's sort of assumed that most large companies in China, if not totally controlled by the government, are at least heavily involved with it. So even if Meta or Google are collecting info, it's not for the Chinese government (and being US based, the US Government has a bit more say in what they do.)
  - ok123456 3y ago
    People raise the same objection about American tech companies given the open door relationship that seems to be between going from the intelligence community to being in a position of power in those companies. Should every other country ban American tech?
    - RandallBrown 3y ago
      It depends on how much you view the government as a "bad guy". Being an American, I would say other countries have less to worry about than with the Chinese government. Of course I don't really know and have no strong opinion about places banning TikTok. In general I think it's a pretty silly policy.
    - nonameiguess 3y ago
      Sure, but this is a question about an American government banning services. Clearly, American governments are not concerned that they might be leaking data to their own intelligence services. They're doing that on purpose. There is nothing out of the ordinary about a government banning foreign espionage even though they carry out their own espionage. That is basic statecraft, not really the gotcha some people on Hacker News seem to think it is.
      - ok123456 3y ago
        Except there's no credible espionage from china through TikTok, but Twitter was used to destabilize middle-eastern governments which lead to a refugee crisis in Europe.
    - goodbyesf 3y ago
      > Should every other country ban American tech? Every american tech? No. Every american social media, yes. Especially the major countries. Why india hasn't banned foreign social media is beyond me. What's the point of banning tiktok but not facebook, twitter, etc?
remarkEon 3y ago
I think those are the boilerplate concerns. The real concerns are that TikTok is a dopamine manipulation system that’s better than anything Meta et al could even hope to dream up, and this system can be/is used to influence public opinion and general societal preferences.

sieabahlpark 3y ago

[dead]

tw04 3y ago

>It has yet to be brought to my attention what behaviors/patterns Tik Tok employs which set them apart from their US-based competitors Which of their US competitors voluntarily provide unfettered access to their data to the Chinese Military? https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/03/new-report-reveals-tiktok-parents-extensive-links-to-chinese-military-surveillance-complex/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/03/new-report-reveals-ti... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/new-zealand-bans-tiktok-parliament-australia-china-government/102110218 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-17/new-zealand-bans-tikt...

misnome 3y ago
TikTok provides unfettered data access to the US military?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
olyjohn 3y ago
You've been fooled if you think that Facebook, Google are the ones who would be selling the data. Of course it's not them, it's the data brokers who get all the data from all the other US companies who are tracking every other thing we do. They will sell the data to anybody with money, including China. Even if the data brokers said they would never do that, I guarantee China can just set up a company in the US and straight up purchase the data outright.
- tick_tock_tick 3y ago
  So what your saying is the USA social media companies behave completely differently?
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  Ah hah. But you see as long as there is one layer of indirection or more it's completely different. Somehow.

themagician 3y ago

The issue is not what they are doing but who is doing it. The scale and scope of applications like TikTok means that China can broadcast a message to basically all Americans 16-24 or so. And not just an announcement… they can use the algorithm and the feedback they receive to create groupthink for whatever they want. This would have been an absolute nightmare scenario during the Cold War. Imagine the US decides to start a war with China over, say, Taiwan. China will undoubtedly try to use TikTok to spread anti American sentiment and turn the youth against their own government.

mantas 3y ago
Sounds like Vietnam…
stickfigure 3y ago
> Imagine the US decides to start a war with China over, say, Taiwan. This is such a weird phrasing. The only people threatening to start a war is the leadership of China.
- themagician 3y ago
  It’s really not. The US has a little bit of a history of starting wars. Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but you might want to look up what the US is doing in the Pacific right now. It not out territory. It’s not our fight. We should be minding our own business focusing on our own citizens, not militarizing the Pacific and denying a billion people access to advanced microchips every way possible.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    So people in Taiwan have no say in what happens to them? > We should be minding our own business focusing on our own citizens, Yes, and part of that includes highly overdue reciprocal actions against a nation that has denied our citizens' businesses from flourishing there.
    - 3y ago

cscurmudgeon 3y ago

Reminder: TikTok also spends on lobbying https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/tiktok-bytedance-spent-millions-on-lobbying-congress.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/31/tiktok-bytedance-spent-milli...

jdeibele 3y ago

None of the US social media companies are allowed in China. It seems appropriate that a Chinese social media company would not be allowed in the US. Meta and X and Alphabet all would be in favor of that, sure, but that doesn't mean it's unfair.