6 ms·

Real estate markets scramble following cyberattack on listings provider

61 points by ricberw 3y ago

2023throwawayy 3y ago
> Not all regional listing services are affected because some use data vendors other than Rapattoni. The headline here on HN seems inaccurate. The entire market is not halted.
- ricberw 3y ago
  Posted this based on an agent I know mentioning that she’s effectively taken the last four days off because the lack of MLS makes her job “nearly impossible to do properly.” She said many at her agency are doing the same. I wouldn’t be surprised if this shows up in major economic indicators this month.
  - bloopernova 3y ago
    Hmm. If big money got affected, does that mean we'll see some sweeping new laws soon?
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      Possibly, but I'm not hoping that they will improve anything
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    Major, sure, but 1 agency is 1 datapoint. Seems like a stretch though say the entire industry.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- awb 3y ago
  Anecdotal, but a Real estate agent friend of mine says he’s unaffected.
  - ricberw 3y ago
    Fair, not entire market.
- linsomniac 3y ago
  In fact, Rapattoni is the smallest of the major MLSes. Behind Core Logic, Navica, FBS, and Black Knight, Rapattoni is used by 5% of the organizations. This graph is slightly misleading though, as it's by number of MLSes served, not by number of subscribers, and CoreLogic "Serves nearly half of the MLSes with more than 10,000 subscribers". https://www.t360.com/insight/articles/the-2022-mls-system-technology-landscape/ https://www.t360.com/insight/articles/the-2022-mls-system-te...
mike503 3y ago
Anyone worked with the MLS system? It's so archaic. At least the RMLS. Talk about technical debt.
- mistrial9 3y ago
  different US*MLS use different record formats -- there were several Federal level lawsuits on that topic too IIR
- austinkhale 3y ago
  Worked on a team doing nationwide MLS feeds via a variety of sources eg IDX, VOW, etc. Feels like some sort of arcane art after a certain point trying to get everything to play nicely on a unified interface.
  - danielvaughn 3y ago
    Same. It's a nightmare. We used Trestle, which was decent but still felt like an API from 2005.
- chasd00 3y ago
  > It's so archaic. ...Talk about technical debt. you guys need to get in to medical/prescription claims billing, payments, and reconciliation. That's the real fun stuff right there.
  - jimt1234 3y ago
    My girlfriend runs a medical provider company that bills through most major health insurance companies. One of these companies (a large, well-known insurer) will only accept payment requests by fax, M-F, 8am to 5pm. Yes, I'm serious. They still have a fax machine, and it gets unplugged everyday at 5pm.
politician 3y ago
[flagged]
- symlinkk 3y ago
  I don’t know how anyone could argue with you. The MLS is literally just a database of house listings. In some states you can only access it if you’re a realtor, solely to keep their job secure. Making it decentralized would open up that data for everyone.
  - jjtheblunt 3y ago
    Does it work only if everyone holds credentials for viewing what's in the (centralized or decentralized) data records?
  - danielvaughn 3y ago
    It's a bit more complicated than that. One issue is that some information should only be shared between professionals. For instance, if a seller has a keypad entry, the listing will often contain the passcode for a buyers agent if they want to tour the house while the seller is away. That kind of information can't be shared publicly, so you need some degree of privacy control.
    - symlinkk 3y ago
      Ok so keep that behind a gate and open up the rest. That’s a flimsy excuse. We are software engineers, we know how easy it would be to expose a subset of the data. It’s job security plain and simple. Same reason you can’t buy a car direct from the manufacturer and have to pay thousands in markup to some dealership that adds zero value.
      - linsomniac 3y ago
        It's not really so simple as it might seem. For example: In this blockchain, how do you identify a property? Address? Lots of properties are listed that do not have an address. County parcel number? Also not ideal. But, the real issue is that, as the system currently is, you need to have a license to list a property. Don't like it? You can do FSBO. But, basically nobody does, because the majority of buyers have a Realtor and are showing properties in the MLS. Realtors should, ideally, provide value in the transaction. When I bought a house, for example, my agent provided tips on how to structure the offer that I'm confident allowed us to get the house we got. On the selling side, the should be providing marketing expertise, as well as negotiating the legal landmines. For example, if you were to list your own house and say "This room would make an ideal man-cave", you are opening yourself up to litigation under the Fair Housing laws (you cannot suggest who should live in your house). Now, whether this is worth 5-8% of the sale price is another matter for discussion, but let's not forget that Realtors do provide some value. (Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)
macNchz 3y ago
Given that MLS services’ current existence is less about the technical innovation of disseminating market information with a shared database of listings, and more about aggressively protecting the status quo of the real estate industry by maintaining information asymmetry between brokers and market participants…I am inclined to react in the style of Jeremy Clarkson: “Oh no! Anyway…”
- echelon 3y ago
  It's awful that the industry is glued to this dated, monopolistic system. Why hasn't an alternative emerged? It would be amazing for buyers to have access to this system. You could query for homes matching all kinds of wild parameters. Instead, it's all under lock and key. Zillow and the other public systems sit downstream of MLS with a paltry amount of (typically outdated) information. And these are barely searchable.
  - housemusicfan 3y ago
    I posed a similar question in another thread. Why hasn't an alternative emerged for SAP? For Concur? All these tools reputedly universally hated, all have near-monopolies. Why? Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Who wants to design a real estate database when you could be working on self driving-crypto-cloud-next level bullshit?
    - echelon 3y ago
      > Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Lots of people take on "boring" markets. I don't think that's the problem. Zillow and Redfin are a few steps removed from being MLS themselves. But for some reason they cannot morph into it.
      - housemusicfan 3y ago
        Quite literally they ingest and aggregate MLS data and present it differently with little other value (other than wildly speculating on property values). An MLS "alternative front end" if you will.
kitanata 3y ago
[flagged]
linsomniac 3y ago
Just to clarify a few things, probably not entirely accurate as I'm not a Realtor, but I'm closer to the industry than most: An MLS is really just a database and associated tooling for advertising properties among Realtors in an area. The MLS is controlled by a Realtor Association or similar. This is basically all the Realtors/Brokers in an area working together. This is often a good place to concentrate some customer support and data integrity checks, compliance, etc..., for example. Then there are the Realtors who work with sellers to market properties to buyers, and work with buyers to find the properties and oversee showings, etc... Realtors vary in quality, for sure. Some sell 1-2 houses a year, some sell 1-2 houses a week. The system surely has a lot of problems. But, it also provides value in a lot of ways that aren't easy to just remove. So you want to list your own house? Who's going to take the photos? Are you aware of the applicable laws, say WRT commercial drone photography? Do you know what will get you sued if you say it in a listing? How are you going to pick the price? On the other hand, you want to buy a property by directly searching the MLS: are you up for signing the data sharing contracts required to give you access to that data? How are you going to structure the offer? Do you know what a love letter is and whether it's allowed as part of the offer? Do you know the difference between being pre-approved and pre-qualified? How are you going to get access to the property and are you going to accept liability for any damage/theft? If the owner is directly showing the property (they want to remove the Realtor as well), are you both up for staring at each other uncomfortably as you look through their house? :-) There's an awful lot of money that goes into the Realtor industry. But, if it were easy to get rid of, For Sale By Owner (FSBO) would be more popular. As far as I can tell, at least in my area, FSBO basically doesn't exist. (Full disclosure: Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)
- btreecat 3y ago
  As someone who ran their own UAS company, realtors are the literal worst. No other industry is so cool with hiring uninsured, unlicensed, and under skilled individuals because they don't want to spend more than $50 total, including your time, transportation, and any editing. Most houses don't need drone shots, it's a particularly niche market, even for housing.

61 points by ricberw 3y ago

2023throwawayy 3y ago

> Not all regional listing services are affected because some use data vendors other than Rapattoni. The headline here on HN seems inaccurate. The entire market is not halted.

ricberw 3y ago
Posted this based on an agent I know mentioning that she’s effectively taken the last four days off because the lack of MLS makes her job “nearly impossible to do properly.” She said many at her agency are doing the same. I wouldn’t be surprised if this shows up in major economic indicators this month.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Hmm. If big money got affected, does that mean we'll see some sweeping new laws soon?
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    Possibly, but I'm not hoping that they will improve anything
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Major, sure, but 1 agency is 1 datapoint. Seems like a stretch though say the entire industry.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
awb 3y ago
Anecdotal, but a Real estate agent friend of mine says he’s unaffected.
- ricberw 3y ago
  Fair, not entire market.
linsomniac 3y ago
In fact, Rapattoni is the smallest of the major MLSes. Behind Core Logic, Navica, FBS, and Black Knight, Rapattoni is used by 5% of the organizations. This graph is slightly misleading though, as it's by number of MLSes served, not by number of subscribers, and CoreLogic "Serves nearly half of the MLSes with more than 10,000 subscribers". https://www.t360.com/insight/articles/the-2022-mls-system-technology-landscape/ https://www.t360.com/insight/articles/the-2022-mls-system-te...

mike503 3y ago

Anyone worked with the MLS system? It's so archaic. At least the RMLS. Talk about technical debt.

mistrial9 3y ago
different US*MLS use different record formats -- there were several Federal level lawsuits on that topic too IIR
austinkhale 3y ago
Worked on a team doing nationwide MLS feeds via a variety of sources eg IDX, VOW, etc. Feels like some sort of arcane art after a certain point trying to get everything to play nicely on a unified interface.
- danielvaughn 3y ago
  Same. It's a nightmare. We used Trestle, which was decent but still felt like an API from 2005.
chasd00 3y ago
> It's so archaic. ...Talk about technical debt. you guys need to get in to medical/prescription claims billing, payments, and reconciliation. That's the real fun stuff right there.
- jimt1234 3y ago
  My girlfriend runs a medical provider company that bills through most major health insurance companies. One of these companies (a large, well-known insurer) will only accept payment requests by fax, M-F, 8am to 5pm. Yes, I'm serious. They still have a fax machine, and it gets unplugged everyday at 5pm.

politician 3y ago

[flagged]

symlinkk 3y ago
I don’t know how anyone could argue with you. The MLS is literally just a database of house listings. In some states you can only access it if you’re a realtor, solely to keep their job secure. Making it decentralized would open up that data for everyone.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  Does it work only if everyone holds credentials for viewing what's in the (centralized or decentralized) data records?
- danielvaughn 3y ago
  It's a bit more complicated than that. One issue is that some information should only be shared between professionals. For instance, if a seller has a keypad entry, the listing will often contain the passcode for a buyers agent if they want to tour the house while the seller is away. That kind of information can't be shared publicly, so you need some degree of privacy control.
  - symlinkk 3y ago
    Ok so keep that behind a gate and open up the rest. That’s a flimsy excuse. We are software engineers, we know how easy it would be to expose a subset of the data. It’s job security plain and simple. Same reason you can’t buy a car direct from the manufacturer and have to pay thousands in markup to some dealership that adds zero value.
    - linsomniac 3y ago
      It's not really so simple as it might seem. For example: In this blockchain, how do you identify a property? Address? Lots of properties are listed that do not have an address. County parcel number? Also not ideal. But, the real issue is that, as the system currently is, you need to have a license to list a property. Don't like it? You can do FSBO. But, basically nobody does, because the majority of buyers have a Realtor and are showing properties in the MLS. Realtors should, ideally, provide value in the transaction. When I bought a house, for example, my agent provided tips on how to structure the offer that I'm confident allowed us to get the house we got. On the selling side, the should be providing marketing expertise, as well as negotiating the legal landmines. For example, if you were to list your own house and say "This room would make an ideal man-cave", you are opening yourself up to litigation under the Fair Housing laws (you cannot suggest who should live in your house). Now, whether this is worth 5-8% of the sale price is another matter for discussion, but let's not forget that Realtors do provide some value. (Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)

macNchz 3y ago

Given that MLS services’ current existence is less about the technical innovation of disseminating market information with a shared database of listings, and more about aggressively protecting the status quo of the real estate industry by maintaining information asymmetry between brokers and market participants…I am inclined to react in the style of Jeremy Clarkson: “Oh no! Anyway…”

echelon 3y ago
It's awful that the industry is glued to this dated, monopolistic system. Why hasn't an alternative emerged? It would be amazing for buyers to have access to this system. You could query for homes matching all kinds of wild parameters. Instead, it's all under lock and key. Zillow and the other public systems sit downstream of MLS with a paltry amount of (typically outdated) information. And these are barely searchable.
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  I posed a similar question in another thread. Why hasn't an alternative emerged for SAP? For Concur? All these tools reputedly universally hated, all have near-monopolies. Why? Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Who wants to design a real estate database when you could be working on self driving-crypto-cloud-next level bullshit?
  - echelon 3y ago
    > Because few are motivated enough to tackle 'boring' problems. Lots of people take on "boring" markets. I don't think that's the problem. Zillow and Redfin are a few steps removed from being MLS themselves. But for some reason they cannot morph into it.
    - housemusicfan 3y ago
      Quite literally they ingest and aggregate MLS data and present it differently with little other value (other than wildly speculating on property values). An MLS "alternative front end" if you will.

kitanata 3y ago

[flagged]

linsomniac 3y ago

Just to clarify a few things, probably not entirely accurate as I'm not a Realtor, but I'm closer to the industry than most: An MLS is really just a database and associated tooling for advertising properties among Realtors in an area. The MLS is controlled by a Realtor Association or similar. This is basically all the Realtors/Brokers in an area working together. This is often a good place to concentrate some customer support and data integrity checks, compliance, etc..., for example. Then there are the Realtors who work with sellers to market properties to buyers, and work with buyers to find the properties and oversee showings, etc... Realtors vary in quality, for sure. Some sell 1-2 houses a year, some sell 1-2 houses a week. The system surely has a lot of problems. But, it also provides value in a lot of ways that aren't easy to just remove. So you want to list your own house? Who's going to take the photos? Are you aware of the applicable laws, say WRT commercial drone photography? Do you know what will get you sued if you say it in a listing? How are you going to pick the price? On the other hand, you want to buy a property by directly searching the MLS: are you up for signing the data sharing contracts required to give you access to that data? How are you going to structure the offer? Do you know what a love letter is and whether it's allowed as part of the offer? Do you know the difference between being pre-approved and pre-qualified? How are you going to get access to the property and are you going to accept liability for any damage/theft? If the owner is directly showing the property (they want to remove the Realtor as well), are you both up for staring at each other uncomfortably as you look through their house? :-) There's an awful lot of money that goes into the Realtor industry. But, if it were easy to get rid of, For Sale By Owner (FSBO) would be more popular. As far as I can tell, at least in my area, FSBO basically doesn't exist. (Full disclosure: Not a Realtor, SysAdmin to an MLS)

btreecat 3y ago
As someone who ran their own UAS company, realtors are the literal worst. No other industry is so cool with hiring uninsured, unlicensed, and under skilled individuals because they don't want to spend more than $50 total, including your time, transportation, and any editing. Most houses don't need drone shots, it's a particularly niche market, even for housing.