5 ms·

Somehow it's _really_hard_ to list all the fees ahead of time, yet it's still _really_easy_ to list them all when it comes time to bill their millions of subscr

by luma 3y ago

Somehow it's _really_hard_ to list all the fees ahead of time, yet it's still _really_easy_ to list them all when it comes time to bill their millions of subscribers each and every month. The largest of these companies manage to compute this number more than a billion times a year. Any regulator who takes this line of reasoning seriously is immediately suspect.

YeBanKo 3y ago
While you are right, it’s not limited to telcos or isps, seems like in general consumer pricing must be required to be transparent.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  There's nothing quite as American as not knowing what you're going to pay until the moment you have to pay it. It happens in retail, hotels, especially healthcare, car shopping, everything. We have this weird culture of just accepting terrible status-quo. This is one of the many nationwide problems that we have convinced ourselves there's no way to fix, despite many other countries in the world having fixed it a long time ago.
  - CameronNemo 3y ago
    Don't forget restaurants that tack on "service fees" that often range from 1-18%.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      Another person in a different thread[1] mentioned his city where businesses are tacking "living wage surcharges" onto their bills! So now the customer is paying your payroll? I'm convinced this is the inevitable end-state of American business: Advertise $0 for all products, and then opaquely "pass through" everything as fees when the customer goes to check out. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37141091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37141091
      - YeBanKo 3y ago
        SF does it. They justified it as fee to offset cost of doing business.
      - m463 3y ago
        Sounds like how free apps work. maybe a "free food" restaurant with upcharges for calories? more for protein calories? expensive diet plans?
        WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
        I’ve been to a running sushi restaurant where you pay for your time at the table, and if your stomach is large enough and if you don’t waste your time, the food gets ridiculously cheap. Suffice to say it didn’t help my BMI at all.
  - csomar 3y ago
    No country has fixed this a long time ago. This problem never existed in the first place. In some countries not having a clear fee schedule will get you in troubles that you don't want with your clientele.
    - tim333 3y ago
      In the UK it didn't just happen >Section 20 of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 makes it a criminal offence for a person in the course of his business to give consumers a misleading price indication... may have helped
- crote 3y ago
  The US can't even get companies to include sales tax on price tags shown in physical stores. If they don't even manage to do something that basic properly, don't hold your breath trying to get them to fix telco/ISP pricing.
  - csomar 3y ago
    I have mixed feelings about this one since it can help reminding people how much of their purchasing power is being extracted from the state. That being said, it could be fixed by having the two prices at the same time.
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      If it must be included in the price, business will go out of the way to demonstrate the part of the price a tax is responsible for. Pretty much everywhere where it’s the case, somewhere on the page with price there is a note explaining that tax is included.
    - hnbad 3y ago
      In Germany all listed prices everywhere (except in strict b2b spaces) include VAT. On invoices and bills prices are usually listed as both "raw", VAT and combined, often per item. The only exception is deposit on packaging (cans, bottles and bottle crates) where the deposit is always listed separately on price tags and listed as a separate item on the bill. But these deposits are standardized by law and can be refunded at any place that sells these goods. This doesn't seem to have any particular effect (tho Germans are notoriously uninterested in political activism) except that any person on the street can likely tell you exactly what the VAT rate is (it's currently 19% on most goods, 7% on some specific items and 0% on a much smaller set of items -- most people likely won't know specifically which items are in those two categories tho as it's somewhat arbitrary thanks to lobbying). Shops generally don't break out what exactly goes into the "raw" price tho as that's usually not in the brand's best interest (because it spells out their profit margin, which may be surprisingly high).
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    I actually do think it’s possible and easy to fix. We are few propositions away from forcing it everywhere in the country.
wildrhythms 3y ago
It's the same ISPs that make it very easy to sign up for service on the website, just enter your name, address, billing details, and they ship you a modem. But when it's time to cancel... (with the exception of certain states) it must be difficult for them to build a 'Cancel service' button into the website; you are required to call a phone number, wait on hold, and begrudgingly speak to customer retention agent.

by luma 3y ago

YeBanKo 3y ago

While you are right, it’s not limited to telcos or isps, seems like in general consumer pricing must be required to be transparent.

ryandrake 3y ago
There's nothing quite as American as not knowing what you're going to pay until the moment you have to pay it. It happens in retail, hotels, especially healthcare, car shopping, everything. We have this weird culture of just accepting terrible status-quo. This is one of the many nationwide problems that we have convinced ourselves there's no way to fix, despite many other countries in the world having fixed it a long time ago.
- CameronNemo 3y ago
  Don't forget restaurants that tack on "service fees" that often range from 1-18%.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Another person in a different thread[1] mentioned his city where businesses are tacking "living wage surcharges" onto their bills! So now the customer is paying your payroll? I'm convinced this is the inevitable end-state of American business: Advertise $0 for all products, and then opaquely "pass through" everything as fees when the customer goes to check out. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37141091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37141091
    - YeBanKo 3y ago
      SF does it. They justified it as fee to offset cost of doing business.
    - m463 3y ago
      Sounds like how free apps work. maybe a "free food" restaurant with upcharges for calories? more for protein calories? expensive diet plans?
      - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
        I’ve been to a running sushi restaurant where you pay for your time at the table, and if your stomach is large enough and if you don’t waste your time, the food gets ridiculously cheap. Suffice to say it didn’t help my BMI at all.
- csomar 3y ago
  No country has fixed this a long time ago. This problem never existed in the first place. In some countries not having a clear fee schedule will get you in troubles that you don't want with your clientele.
  - tim333 3y ago
    In the UK it didn't just happen >Section 20 of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 makes it a criminal offence for a person in the course of his business to give consumers a misleading price indication... may have helped
crote 3y ago
The US can't even get companies to include sales tax on price tags shown in physical stores. If they don't even manage to do something that basic properly, don't hold your breath trying to get them to fix telco/ISP pricing.
- csomar 3y ago
  I have mixed feelings about this one since it can help reminding people how much of their purchasing power is being extracted from the state. That being said, it could be fixed by having the two prices at the same time.
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    If it must be included in the price, business will go out of the way to demonstrate the part of the price a tax is responsible for. Pretty much everywhere where it’s the case, somewhere on the page with price there is a note explaining that tax is included.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    In Germany all listed prices everywhere (except in strict b2b spaces) include VAT. On invoices and bills prices are usually listed as both "raw", VAT and combined, often per item. The only exception is deposit on packaging (cans, bottles and bottle crates) where the deposit is always listed separately on price tags and listed as a separate item on the bill. But these deposits are standardized by law and can be refunded at any place that sells these goods. This doesn't seem to have any particular effect (tho Germans are notoriously uninterested in political activism) except that any person on the street can likely tell you exactly what the VAT rate is (it's currently 19% on most goods, 7% on some specific items and 0% on a much smaller set of items -- most people likely won't know specifically which items are in those two categories tho as it's somewhat arbitrary thanks to lobbying). Shops generally don't break out what exactly goes into the "raw" price tho as that's usually not in the brand's best interest (because it spells out their profit margin, which may be surprisingly high).
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  I actually do think it’s possible and easy to fix. We are few propositions away from forcing it everywhere in the country.

wildrhythms 3y ago

It's the same ISPs that make it very easy to sign up for service on the website, just enter your name, address, billing details, and they ship you a modem. But when it's time to cancel... (with the exception of certain states) it must be difficult for them to build a 'Cancel service' button into the website; you are required to call a phone number, wait on hold, and begrudgingly speak to customer retention agent.