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> This is still a problem! There are still a lot of academics publishing today who take Marx completely seriously and attempt to build on his ideas. I don't th

by e12e 3y ago

> This is still a problem! There are still a lot of academics publishing today who take Marx completely seriously and attempt to build on his ideas. I don't think dismissing (all of) Marx because of Stalin makes much more sense than dismissing the idea of democracy because of the size of the US prison population or it's history of war crimes?

joenot443 3y ago
Perhaps if democracy was an American invention your comparison could hold some water, it doesn't really make any sense otherwise. Democracy's practiced by the majority of nations worldwide, I don't see what the prison population of a single nation has to do with that. The reason myself and others are so dismissive of Marx's ideas is because time and time again, any time those ideas have been forcibly implemented amongst a population, the result is bloodshed and subjugation. Every. Single. Time. Many of us have grown weary of tankie types trying to shoehorn pro-Marxist viewpoints into these conversations and are pretty quick to identify the dog whistles ("But, but, America!") when we hear them.
- JuanPosadas 3y ago
  > Perhaps if democracy was an American invention They invented a democracy. Their democracy is of their own design, based on the historical work of philosophers. The constitution is not a plagiarized document stolen from the greeks. Marx was decades dead when 1917 happened. Your point falls flat on its face. > any time those ideas have been forcibly implemented amongst a population, the result is bloodshed and subjugation You are one of today's lucky 10,000. Allow me to inform you of the genocide of native Americans, manifest destiny, the slavery of Africans, the toppling of the kingdom of Hawaii, the contras, operation condor, US Imperialism, etc.. Text book example of special pleading. > But, but, America! IDK, maybe you shouldn't make such weak fallacious arguments that don't pass even the lightest of scrutiny? People living in glass Native American burial grounds shouldn't throw stones? Maybe these """tankies""" are tired of all these first world dronies or diet white supremacists (IDK what you're suppose to be) spewing colonizer propaganda everywhere?
  - joenot443 3y ago
    > Maybe these """tankies""" are tired of all these first world dronies or diet white supremacists (IDK what you're suppose to be) spewing colonizer propaganda everywhere? I don't think the notion of fair and equal representation is colonizer propaganda, but based off your previous comments, you're far enough down the rabbit-hole that it's not worth trying to lift you out. I'm not a "diet white supremacist" whatever that is, just someone whose family was murdered in the Holodomor and as a result has done a lot of reading on the USSR and its atrocities. Be well, I hope someday you can put this hate behind you.
    - JuanPosadas 3y ago
      > Be well, I hope someday you can put this hate behind you. What's hateful about wanting to expand the benefits of democracy to the working class? Multiple worse real genocides have happened to my people than your historically cyclical-until-1947 famine that's only talked about for the sole purpose of excluding the working class from a better form of democracy.
- 0dayz 3y ago
  You yourself point out the real issue but instead focusing on the vague point of "Marx ideas". Which is that the "revolution was ultimately forced down people's throat whenever they liked it or not. And due to your vaguely defining "Marxs ideas" thar would then include the Nordic model or any state intervention/run enterprise if we were to stretch it. And talkies in the modern age is defined as similar to those of the alt right where they either overtly or covertly support every aspect of the Ussr and in particular Stalin shamelessly. Hence not every Marxist.
  - joenot443 3y ago
    A quote from Marx himself - "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution." If the man himself agrees that his ideas can only be implemented through a "forcible overthrow", isn't it safe to say that those who follow his teachings today are either purposely ignoring a big part of his message, or are merely biding their time for the next revolution? It all reads the same to me. In the same way I consider every Nazi a Nazi, I consider every Marxist a Marxist.
    - 0dayz 3y ago
      You're not addressing the argument whatsoever. Your quote without context does indeed proclaim "forcible overthrow"... of all existing social conditions. If you read it with context in mind it becomes clear that the notion or idea of the revolution is multifaceted as the communist manifesto refers to different means as to how the revolution is spreading (france, germany and Switzerland) and said quote is meant to represent the unrelenting resolution to not conceded to the "bourgeoisie" terms of the social condition upon the working class/proletarian, hence forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions that primarily the working class had to suffer through. Out of all the things you could pick to critic the communist manifesto this has to be the weakest one, you could bring up the flimsy and quite frankly speaking terrible argument for the abolishing of private property. Or the assumption that capital is only defined by materialistic definitions. And now you change your point. Yes all Marxists are Marxists, tankies are not Marxists however, which is what you originally said.

by e12e 3y ago

joenot443 3y ago

Perhaps if democracy was an American invention your comparison could hold some water, it doesn't really make any sense otherwise. Democracy's practiced by the majority of nations worldwide, I don't see what the prison population of a single nation has to do with that. The reason myself and others are so dismissive of Marx's ideas is because time and time again, any time those ideas have been forcibly implemented amongst a population, the result is bloodshed and subjugation. Every. Single. Time. Many of us have grown weary of tankie types trying to shoehorn pro-Marxist viewpoints into these conversations and are pretty quick to identify the dog whistles ("But, but, America!") when we hear them.

JuanPosadas 3y ago
> Perhaps if democracy was an American invention They invented a democracy. Their democracy is of their own design, based on the historical work of philosophers. The constitution is not a plagiarized document stolen from the greeks. Marx was decades dead when 1917 happened. Your point falls flat on its face. > any time those ideas have been forcibly implemented amongst a population, the result is bloodshed and subjugation You are one of today's lucky 10,000. Allow me to inform you of the genocide of native Americans, manifest destiny, the slavery of Africans, the toppling of the kingdom of Hawaii, the contras, operation condor, US Imperialism, etc.. Text book example of special pleading. > But, but, America! IDK, maybe you shouldn't make such weak fallacious arguments that don't pass even the lightest of scrutiny? People living in glass Native American burial grounds shouldn't throw stones? Maybe these """tankies""" are tired of all these first world dronies or diet white supremacists (IDK what you're suppose to be) spewing colonizer propaganda everywhere?
- joenot443 3y ago
  > Maybe these """tankies""" are tired of all these first world dronies or diet white supremacists (IDK what you're suppose to be) spewing colonizer propaganda everywhere? I don't think the notion of fair and equal representation is colonizer propaganda, but based off your previous comments, you're far enough down the rabbit-hole that it's not worth trying to lift you out. I'm not a "diet white supremacist" whatever that is, just someone whose family was murdered in the Holodomor and as a result has done a lot of reading on the USSR and its atrocities. Be well, I hope someday you can put this hate behind you.
  - JuanPosadas 3y ago
    > Be well, I hope someday you can put this hate behind you. What's hateful about wanting to expand the benefits of democracy to the working class? Multiple worse real genocides have happened to my people than your historically cyclical-until-1947 famine that's only talked about for the sole purpose of excluding the working class from a better form of democracy.
0dayz 3y ago
You yourself point out the real issue but instead focusing on the vague point of "Marx ideas". Which is that the "revolution was ultimately forced down people's throat whenever they liked it or not. And due to your vaguely defining "Marxs ideas" thar would then include the Nordic model or any state intervention/run enterprise if we were to stretch it. And talkies in the modern age is defined as similar to those of the alt right where they either overtly or covertly support every aspect of the Ussr and in particular Stalin shamelessly. Hence not every Marxist.
- joenot443 3y ago
  A quote from Marx himself - "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution." If the man himself agrees that his ideas can only be implemented through a "forcible overthrow", isn't it safe to say that those who follow his teachings today are either purposely ignoring a big part of his message, or are merely biding their time for the next revolution? It all reads the same to me. In the same way I consider every Nazi a Nazi, I consider every Marxist a Marxist.
  - 0dayz 3y ago
    You're not addressing the argument whatsoever. Your quote without context does indeed proclaim "forcible overthrow"... of all existing social conditions. If you read it with context in mind it becomes clear that the notion or idea of the revolution is multifaceted as the communist manifesto refers to different means as to how the revolution is spreading (france, germany and Switzerland) and said quote is meant to represent the unrelenting resolution to not conceded to the "bourgeoisie" terms of the social condition upon the working class/proletarian, hence forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions that primarily the working class had to suffer through. Out of all the things you could pick to critic the communist manifesto this has to be the weakest one, you could bring up the flimsy and quite frankly speaking terrible argument for the abolishing of private property. Or the assumption that capital is only defined by materialistic definitions. And now you change your point. Yes all Marxists are Marxists, tankies are not Marxists however, which is what you originally said.