4 ms·

With all respect to Brandon Gilles, I have never heard of "dying from long covid" before and am trying to understand what this means. There is a huge discrepan

With all respect to Brandon Gilles, I have never heard of "dying from long covid" before and am trying to understand what this means. There is a huge discrepancy and a lot of detail missing between "developed Long-COVID symptoms such as brain fog, fatigue, muscle pain and shortness of breath" and "he suffered from multiple organ failures". I tried searching but have not found anything (yes I know some death certificates list long-covid as a contributory cause in CDC data, but one can list anything on a death certificate). Does anyone have a source/case report explaining this or detailing a case? (Please note I am not trying to start a political debate regarding COVID out of a man's obituary, I am genuinely curious if anyone has information about this as I've never heard a causative claim before)

latchkey 3y ago
It was an easy google search ("covid multiple organ failure") with a bunch of responses, including: https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/repeat-covid-19-infections-increase-risk-of-organ-failure-death/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/repeat-covid-19-infections-i... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27627 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27627 https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-022-07402-6 https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s128...
- haldujai 3y ago
  All of your sources are about acute or active covid infection. As a physician who worked in an ECMO center during the pandemic I am well aware of severe Covid-19 infections and as I stated in my post I tried searching, specifically looking on: UpToDate, Medscape and Google Scholar. I am asking about "long-covid", also called "post covid condition". From Brandon's own description he had what would be classified as "mild COVID-19 illness" and was never hospitalized. He had some persistent symptoms that may be attributable to "long-covid", this is very different from your sources. I have never heard of a death from long-term sequelae in someone who has never been hospitalized.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - latchkey 3y ago
    The first link was about repeat infections. It seems possible that he could have had multiple infections and then that caused MoD? > As a physician Oh, you didn't mention that in the first post... I'm sure you know better than I.
    - haldujai 3y ago
      > The first link was about repeat infections. It seems possible that he could have had multiple infections and then that caused MoD? His timeline on the Google document ends in April 2023 when he reported he was slowly improving. It's certainly possible another infection resulted in multi-organ failure and unfortunately his death but that would be "acute covid" and not "long-covid". > Oh, you didn't mention that in the first post... I'm sure you know better than I. I don't see long-covid in my practice and hence why I'm asking. I know some of the literature around it and tried searching without success, I'm wondering if someone who knows more can fill in some of the blanks here.
  - ck2 3y ago
    As someome going through something similar to Brandon but a bit less severe let me plant this thought in your process: The initial covid infection can be a "death blow" for some people, especially if genetically at risk for long-covid (as proven in recent studies) Just like Brandon I had a near fatal covid infection in 2020, I was on 24/7 oxygen for two months and never fully recovered. I've stabilized but it is clear I am on a slow but steady decline over the past few years and if this slope continues, I could end up like Brandon. So if I die in a couple years from Long-Covid, are you going to argue it's not long-covid that killed me or the original covid infection? Because the damage persists and is getting worse even without active infection. There are several papers on premature aging (aka radical aging) from covid->long-covid, the ultimate final outcome of that is organ failure and death many years, decades, before one's time. Look at his twitter and you'll see some of his photos, he was not well and that's three years later after infection. https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies Covid basically finds every genetic and environmental triggered weakness in the body and doesn't relent in some people. That's long-covid, at least one kind.
slowmovintarget 3y ago
That site is bizarre. The text was made unselectable for some reason. It also appears to be a rehash of some other random site. This is a bit better: https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/status/1686937347819233280 https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/status/1686937347819233280
- haldujai 3y ago
  Interesting, it affirms his timeline in the Google doc that he was improving up to April 2023. I can't rationalize how any of the symptoms he described, and having undergone many medical tests which were not described as indicating any end-organ dysfunction, would result in to organ failure which I've never heard of happening "out of the blue". I fully respect his family's right to privacy and of course don't expect a full disclosure. The physician in me is very interested in learning more about what happened in either his or another case. From a medical perspective this is a very shocking turn of events that has not yet been described to my knowledge.
  - slowmovintarget 3y ago
    Every other news article from reasonable sources that I could find indicate Long COVID exacerbates underlying conditions (cancer, respiratory diseases, heart disease), or triggers type II diabetes (something to do with the virus damaging the pancreas to tip conditions over some line). The only place I can find claims for organ failure are on conspiracy forums. I can't put much credence in the idea, yet. (But I'm just a software geek, not a physician.)
- ck2 3y ago
  I am hoping either HN mods replace my link or someone writes a proper post by human hand. I kinda regret not taking a deeper look at that website first but at least the news is out and people are talking about it and remembering him. I wish there was a way to archive all his posts but of course now that's even more impossible given twitter's degradation https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies
quenched 3y ago
While long Covid is an encompassing term, there is symptom overlap between long COVID and ME/CFS. Around 50% of people with long COVID meet the criteria for a diagnosis of ME/CFS. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2023.1090747/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2023.1090... Mild ME/CFS is usually associated with around 50% reduction in daily functioning. Moderate will usually lead to people being housebound and intermittently bed-bound. Severe and very severe are associated with a level of suffering that is hard to imagine possible. An example of someone becoming severe is PhysicsGirl - Dianna Cowern. https://youtu.be/vydgkCCXbTA https://youtu.be/vydgkCCXbTA The associated severe dysautonomia means that people are unable to sit or stand and often they can not eat or digest. They may require intravenous nutrition. Regrettably there are cases where the disease has not been treated appropriately and young people have died as a result. A recent example is Maeve Boothby-O'Neill and her father Sean O'Neill wrote in The Times with an interview with Maeve's Mother by Dr David Tuller. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-daughter-couldnt-be-saved-but-theres-hope-for-other-me-patients-j7lbgg68k https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-daughter-couldnt-be-sa... https://www.codastory.com/waronscience/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-long-covid-unexplained-symptoms/ https://www.codastory.com/waronscience/chronic-fatigue-syndr...
- haldujai 3y ago
  Brandon describes slowly improving over ~1.5 years up to April 2023 when he was walking ~0.9 miles/day which so far is concordant with ME/CFS but where it gets discordant is that he progressed to multi-organ failure and death within 3 months. I'm not questioning whether he suffered from ME/CFS but mortality is not reported in the Stanford data or what I've heard described of the syndrome. It's hard to wrap my head around ME/CFS as he has described it being causative of organ failure. Did something happen? Is this a consequence of the therapeutic he tried? Organ failure in a 37 year old without a history of end-organ dysfunction or acutely inciting event like a toxicity is incredibly unusual.
  - quenched 3y ago

latchkey 3y ago

It was an easy google search ("covid multiple organ failure") with a bunch of responses, including: https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/repeat-covid-19-infections-increase-risk-of-organ-failure-death/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/repeat-covid-19-infections-i... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27627 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.27627 https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-022-07402-6 https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s128...

haldujai 3y ago
All of your sources are about acute or active covid infection. As a physician who worked in an ECMO center during the pandemic I am well aware of severe Covid-19 infections and as I stated in my post I tried searching, specifically looking on: UpToDate, Medscape and Google Scholar. I am asking about "long-covid", also called "post covid condition". From Brandon's own description he had what would be classified as "mild COVID-19 illness" and was never hospitalized. He had some persistent symptoms that may be attributable to "long-covid", this is very different from your sources. I have never heard of a death from long-term sequelae in someone who has never been hospitalized.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- latchkey 3y ago
  The first link was about repeat infections. It seems possible that he could have had multiple infections and then that caused MoD? > As a physician Oh, you didn't mention that in the first post... I'm sure you know better than I.
  - haldujai 3y ago
    > The first link was about repeat infections. It seems possible that he could have had multiple infections and then that caused MoD? His timeline on the Google document ends in April 2023 when he reported he was slowly improving. It's certainly possible another infection resulted in multi-organ failure and unfortunately his death but that would be "acute covid" and not "long-covid". > Oh, you didn't mention that in the first post... I'm sure you know better than I. I don't see long-covid in my practice and hence why I'm asking. I know some of the literature around it and tried searching without success, I'm wondering if someone who knows more can fill in some of the blanks here.
- ck2 3y ago
  As someome going through something similar to Brandon but a bit less severe let me plant this thought in your process: The initial covid infection can be a "death blow" for some people, especially if genetically at risk for long-covid (as proven in recent studies) Just like Brandon I had a near fatal covid infection in 2020, I was on 24/7 oxygen for two months and never fully recovered. I've stabilized but it is clear I am on a slow but steady decline over the past few years and if this slope continues, I could end up like Brandon. So if I die in a couple years from Long-Covid, are you going to argue it's not long-covid that killed me or the original covid infection? Because the damage persists and is getting worse even without active infection. There are several papers on premature aging (aka radical aging) from covid->long-covid, the ultimate final outcome of that is organ failure and death many years, decades, before one's time. Look at his twitter and you'll see some of his photos, he was not well and that's three years later after infection. https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies Covid basically finds every genetic and environmental triggered weakness in the body and doesn't relent in some people. That's long-covid, at least one kind.

slowmovintarget 3y ago

That site is bizarre. The text was made unselectable for some reason. It also appears to be a rehash of some other random site. This is a bit better: https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/status/1686937347819233280 https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/status/1686937347819233280

haldujai 3y ago
Interesting, it affirms his timeline in the Google doc that he was improving up to April 2023. I can't rationalize how any of the symptoms he described, and having undergone many medical tests which were not described as indicating any end-organ dysfunction, would result in to organ failure which I've never heard of happening "out of the blue". I fully respect his family's right to privacy and of course don't expect a full disclosure. The physician in me is very interested in learning more about what happened in either his or another case. From a medical perspective this is a very shocking turn of events that has not yet been described to my knowledge.
- slowmovintarget 3y ago
  Every other news article from reasonable sources that I could find indicate Long COVID exacerbates underlying conditions (cancer, respiratory diseases, heart disease), or triggers type II diabetes (something to do with the virus damaging the pancreas to tip conditions over some line). The only place I can find claims for organ failure are on conspiracy forums. I can't put much credence in the idea, yet. (But I'm just a software geek, not a physician.)
ck2 3y ago
I am hoping either HN mods replace my link or someone writes a proper post by human hand. I kinda regret not taking a deeper look at that website first but at least the news is out and people are talking about it and remembering him. I wish there was a way to archive all his posts but of course now that's even more impossible given twitter's degradation https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies https://twitter.com/BrandonGilles/with_replies

quenched 3y ago

While long Covid is an encompassing term, there is symptom overlap between long COVID and ME/CFS. Around 50% of people with long COVID meet the criteria for a diagnosis of ME/CFS. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-023-00904-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2023.1090747/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2023.1090... Mild ME/CFS is usually associated with around 50% reduction in daily functioning. Moderate will usually lead to people being housebound and intermittently bed-bound. Severe and very severe are associated with a level of suffering that is hard to imagine possible. An example of someone becoming severe is PhysicsGirl - Dianna Cowern. https://youtu.be/vydgkCCXbTA https://youtu.be/vydgkCCXbTA The associated severe dysautonomia means that people are unable to sit or stand and often they can not eat or digest. They may require intravenous nutrition. Regrettably there are cases where the disease has not been treated appropriately and young people have died as a result. A recent example is Maeve Boothby-O'Neill and her father Sean O'Neill wrote in The Times with an interview with Maeve's Mother by Dr David Tuller. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-daughter-couldnt-be-saved-but-theres-hope-for-other-me-patients-j7lbgg68k https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-daughter-couldnt-be-sa... https://www.codastory.com/waronscience/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-long-covid-unexplained-symptoms/ https://www.codastory.com/waronscience/chronic-fatigue-syndr...

haldujai 3y ago
Brandon describes slowly improving over ~1.5 years up to April 2023 when he was walking ~0.9 miles/day which so far is concordant with ME/CFS but where it gets discordant is that he progressed to multi-organ failure and death within 3 months. I'm not questioning whether he suffered from ME/CFS but mortality is not reported in the Stanford data or what I've heard described of the syndrome. It's hard to wrap my head around ME/CFS as he has described it being causative of organ failure. Did something happen? Is this a consequence of the therapeutic he tried? Organ failure in a 37 year old without a history of end-organ dysfunction or acutely inciting event like a toxicity is incredibly unusual.
- quenched 3y ago