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> Basically, just STEM, nursing, radiology, etc. So "Basically, STEM or STEM-adjacent"? (depending how consider nursing) > The expected value of the degree T

> Basically, just STEM, nursing, radiology, etc. So "Basically, STEM or STEM-adjacent"? (depending how consider nursing) > The expected value of the degree To society or the individual? Calculated how? > If you want an art school history major, you need a real loan. So only rich people are allowed to be educated in the humanities unless you're willing to get what will be a very expensive and likely cost-prohibitive private loan? This seems like a step backwards. > A healthy medium might be to allow federal loans to continue for only programs with an expected value in four years that exceeds that of the degree program cost plus loan interest plus double the cost of living So basically only engineers? This wouldn't apply to anyone getting a graduate degree or even most other professions. A mathematician from MIT entering academia wouldn't meet this calculation. Neither would almost all physicians, even if you ignore years spent in residency, unless they're moving somewhere with a very low COL. Respectfully, as someone with a humanities undergraduate and two graduate STEM degrees, I find your proposition incredibly shortsighted and fails to consider the individual and societal value of non-STEM degrees beyond direct salary. I would argue my undergraduate degree has provided me far more value, financial and otherwise, than either of my other degrees.

lsmeducation 3y ago
How much is the cost of your undergraduate major on average nationwide? Do you believe it is accurately priced in comparison to a STEM major? It’s a pricing issue. If we don’t agree it’s a pricing issue, then let’s pay everyone the same salary regardless of profession. There’s ideological value in everything, but we’re talking business here. The colleges CHARGE you something. They don’t gift you anything out of virtue. So talk money. I’d be willing to even accept a Nicotine warning label of sorts that colleges tell an English major at the start (and the parents). “hazardous warning label: hey, we are going to charge you 15k a year for this. you won’t likely make more than X in the real world with this degree. You cool with it? No refunds.”
- haldujai 3y ago
  I don't know the national average of my major. I paid something around 35-40k/year in tuition for an english literature degree. My MD and MS (CS) were more expensive but also done later. All undergraduate degrees in the US have a pricing issue. I don't believe anyone should be paying 30-60k/year for one. > There’s ideological value in everything, but we’re talking business here. No, we're talking about university education which should not be a business. I don't consider an undergraduate degree training for a specific job, that's what technical colleges are for. If you want to argue we shouldn't subsidize university in general I could understand that but think it's a bad idea. I don't agree that STEM degrees are inherently more valuable than the humanities from a general education perspective which is what I view undergraduate degrees as. If we treat it as a business we should only subsidize courses essential for the workplace. Why am I subsidizing a web developer or a physician taking undergraduate calculus and physics? Having worked as both I have needed neither. > “hazardous warning label: hey, we are going to charge you 15k a year for this. you won’t likely make more than X in the real world with this degree. You cool with it? No refunds.” I think it's common knowledge that STEM graduates earn more, this was the case when I was in high school during the 2000s.
  - lsmeducation 3y ago
    No, we're talking about university education which should not be a business. Money and loans are involved, people pay, and people get paid. If we go even further on the money part, many consider it an investment. Anyways. Perhaps we should make the core liberal arts courses free of charge, and then create a pricing model for professional courses where the pricing model is more realistic about what is being offered, for what price, where the question truly becomes “is this worth it?”. That way we can finally separate the holiness of a core education away from specialized professional paths.
    - haldujai 3y ago
      That’s interesting. I could get behind 1-2 years of core liberal arts training for everyone. I think it would be better for society. I find the skills I developed in my English degree have been very useful during my medical training and practice and has been commented on by my teachers during this journey. It’s certainly a better use of resources and time than a pre-med curriculum that gets repeated in the first 2 years of medical school anyway.
fallingknife 3y ago
What is the benefit to me of someone else having a humanities degree? I see the benefit to me of someone else being trained as an engineer, so I am happy to support that with my taxes. What is it that humanities majors learn that can't be learned for free, or maybe a few buck on Amazon? I took those classes and I'm not seeing it. They were taught on such a low level compared to STEM classes that it was a joke.
- haldujai 3y ago
  Whether or not one personally finds benefit from things like fine art, media, journalism or literature it's clear that our society places value on this through both private enterprise and public institutions. > What is it that humanities majors learn that can't be learned for free, or maybe a few buck on Amazon? This statement is more easily applied to some STEM fields. Why pay for a CS degree when you can learn everything online for free?
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    Also true. I got into SWE from a 3 month boot camp. When I said "engineering" I was thinking more like types of engineering that involve interfacing with physical reality and require hands on work. Also you'll never hear me complain about government support for training in the trades. > fine art, media, journalism or literature And for these you also don't even need a degree, so why pay for them out of my taxes? Universities are a money grab.
- echelon 3y ago
  > What is the benefit to me of someone else having a humanities degree? You don't even have to think hard about it. The market prices it accordingly. Market wages.

lsmeducation 3y ago

How much is the cost of your undergraduate major on average nationwide? Do you believe it is accurately priced in comparison to a STEM major? It’s a pricing issue. If we don’t agree it’s a pricing issue, then let’s pay everyone the same salary regardless of profession. There’s ideological value in everything, but we’re talking business here. The colleges CHARGE you something. They don’t gift you anything out of virtue. So talk money. I’d be willing to even accept a Nicotine warning label of sorts that colleges tell an English major at the start (and the parents). “hazardous warning label: hey, we are going to charge you 15k a year for this. you won’t likely make more than X in the real world with this degree. You cool with it? No refunds.”

haldujai 3y ago
I don't know the national average of my major. I paid something around 35-40k/year in tuition for an english literature degree. My MD and MS (CS) were more expensive but also done later. All undergraduate degrees in the US have a pricing issue. I don't believe anyone should be paying 30-60k/year for one. > There’s ideological value in everything, but we’re talking business here. No, we're talking about university education which should not be a business. I don't consider an undergraduate degree training for a specific job, that's what technical colleges are for. If you want to argue we shouldn't subsidize university in general I could understand that but think it's a bad idea. I don't agree that STEM degrees are inherently more valuable than the humanities from a general education perspective which is what I view undergraduate degrees as. If we treat it as a business we should only subsidize courses essential for the workplace. Why am I subsidizing a web developer or a physician taking undergraduate calculus and physics? Having worked as both I have needed neither. > “hazardous warning label: hey, we are going to charge you 15k a year for this. you won’t likely make more than X in the real world with this degree. You cool with it? No refunds.” I think it's common knowledge that STEM graduates earn more, this was the case when I was in high school during the 2000s.
- lsmeducation 3y ago
  No, we're talking about university education which should not be a business. Money and loans are involved, people pay, and people get paid. If we go even further on the money part, many consider it an investment. Anyways. Perhaps we should make the core liberal arts courses free of charge, and then create a pricing model for professional courses where the pricing model is more realistic about what is being offered, for what price, where the question truly becomes “is this worth it?”. That way we can finally separate the holiness of a core education away from specialized professional paths.
  - haldujai 3y ago
    That’s interesting. I could get behind 1-2 years of core liberal arts training for everyone. I think it would be better for society. I find the skills I developed in my English degree have been very useful during my medical training and practice and has been commented on by my teachers during this journey. It’s certainly a better use of resources and time than a pre-med curriculum that gets repeated in the first 2 years of medical school anyway.

fallingknife 3y ago

What is the benefit to me of someone else having a humanities degree? I see the benefit to me of someone else being trained as an engineer, so I am happy to support that with my taxes. What is it that humanities majors learn that can't be learned for free, or maybe a few buck on Amazon? I took those classes and I'm not seeing it. They were taught on such a low level compared to STEM classes that it was a joke.

haldujai 3y ago
Whether or not one personally finds benefit from things like fine art, media, journalism or literature it's clear that our society places value on this through both private enterprise and public institutions. > What is it that humanities majors learn that can't be learned for free, or maybe a few buck on Amazon? This statement is more easily applied to some STEM fields. Why pay for a CS degree when you can learn everything online for free?
- fallingknife 3y ago
  Also true. I got into SWE from a 3 month boot camp. When I said "engineering" I was thinking more like types of engineering that involve interfacing with physical reality and require hands on work. Also you'll never hear me complain about government support for training in the trades. > fine art, media, journalism or literature And for these you also don't even need a degree, so why pay for them out of my taxes? Universities are a money grab.
echelon 3y ago
> What is the benefit to me of someone else having a humanities degree? You don't even have to think hard about it. The market prices it accordingly. Market wages.