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Gotta start somewhere. I hope this contributes to some more momentum in the right direction, both legally and in the zeitgeist more broadly. Was also surprised

Gotta start somewhere. I hope this contributes to some more momentum in the right direction, both legally and in the zeitgeist more broadly. Was also surprised to read that Montana emits as much ghg’s as Ireland.

wyager 3y ago
> Was also surprised to read that Montana emits as much ghg’s as Ireland. Does Ireland have much industry to speak of? I was under the impression that most of Ireland's "industrial" output was effectively tax services. Montana is heavily weighted towards agri-industrial production, so it's not surprising to me that net energy usage per person is ~5x higher.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Montana also has a lot of coal reserves, which I assume they use some in state for power production. It’s funny because Montana also has lots of hydro.
- xzel 3y ago
  They have a large amount of cattle. Just read an article in the FT (would link but on mobile) about Ireland looking to cull 200k cows to help balance their methane emissions.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    “They have a large amount of cattle” Montana has more cows than humans. Montana has more than twice as many cows as humans. 1.1 million residents and 2.6 million head of cattle.
    - derriz 3y ago
      Ireland has 7.5m head of cattle[1] - I think that qualifies as a "large amount". And you can add 6m head of sheep and over 1.5m pigs. About 40% of Ireland's CO2 equivalent comes from agriculture/agri-business. [1] https://ahdb.org.uk/news/irish-cattle-and-sheep-numbers-rise-in-2022 https://ahdb.org.uk/news/irish-cattle-and-sheep-numbers-rise...
      - hinkley 3y ago
        Montana doesn’t even make the top ten list for cattle per state. It’s more that there is nobody there except cattle, not that it is a cattle dense location. That’s only about 3% of the cows in the US.
    - oulu2006 3y ago
      That's nothing. At New Zealand's peak we had a 22 sheep to person ratio, now it's still 5 to 1. New Zealand also has >2 to 1 ratio of cows to humans as well.
- Retric 3y ago
  While agriculture makes up a larger percentage of Montana‘a economy industry overall is significantly lower as is the GDP per capita. In terms of total GDP for each, Agriculture really doesn’t explain the discrepancy. What does is mostly transportation and heavy use of coal (44% vs 7%). Montana for example see a lot of out of state trucks cross the state. America is often praised for its rail network but it’s underutilized when you consider our geography and transportation needs.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Ireland has over four and a half times the population of Montana, so the intensity should be higher.
- to11mtm 3y ago
  My very-ignorant assumption would have been peat, although IDK whether the emissions are counted at source or burning site (also, IDK whether peat is still an export...)
  - derriz 3y ago
    The last peat burning plant shut down two years ago[1]. Industrial peat harvesting has ceased. A limited amount of peat harvesting is allowed but just at traditional/family/domestic scales. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Ree_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Ree_Power_Station
- gorgoiler 3y ago
  Pop Land Cows/Herd Sheep ie 5.1M 7Mha 7.4M 2.5M 5.9M MT 1.1M 38Mha 2.2M 1.3M 200k without calves^ The intuition most people have is that CO2 is a people scale problem and Ireland has 5x Montana’s population, even though Montana is 5x more spacious. The cows are significant — methane is awful. [edit: my Irish cow number was out by a factor of 3x, and I’ve separated cows-inc-calves from the adult herd.] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverview.php?state=MONTANA https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverv... https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-clsjp/cropsandlivestockprovisionaljune2022/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-clsjp/cro...
- entropyie 3y ago
  Ireland is not some PO box tax haven, despite what folks like to say on HN... ;-) We have significant pharma and agri-business, plus we make microchips (see Intel, Pfizer etc...)
local_issues 3y ago
Has enormous coal mines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin
melling 3y ago
“Gotta start somewhere” We’re about 40 years into “getting started”. One of the main problems was identified in 1985. https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI
- irjustin 3y ago
  > We’re about 40 years into “getting started”. This describes America way too accurately.
  - JieJie 3y ago
    "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing: after they've tried everything else." — Winston Churchill
    - thfuran 3y ago
      I wish I had his confidence.
- thfuran 3y ago
  1985? It's been known since the 1850s that atmospheric carbon dioxide and water vapor contribute to the greenhouse effect.
  - melling 3y ago
    I didn’t say we discovered the greenhouse effect in 1985. I said we started addressing the issue about 40 years ago. Actually, the Carl Sagan video is still worthwhile. He did an excellent job.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      >I said we started addressing the issue about 40 years ago. You said "One of the main problems was identified in 1985".

wyager 3y ago

> Was also surprised to read that Montana emits as much ghg’s as Ireland. Does Ireland have much industry to speak of? I was under the impression that most of Ireland's "industrial" output was effectively tax services. Montana is heavily weighted towards agri-industrial production, so it's not surprising to me that net energy usage per person is ~5x higher.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Montana also has a lot of coal reserves, which I assume they use some in state for power production. It’s funny because Montana also has lots of hydro.
xzel 3y ago
They have a large amount of cattle. Just read an article in the FT (would link but on mobile) about Ireland looking to cull 200k cows to help balance their methane emissions.
- hinkley 3y ago
  “They have a large amount of cattle” Montana has more cows than humans. Montana has more than twice as many cows as humans. 1.1 million residents and 2.6 million head of cattle.
  - derriz 3y ago
    Ireland has 7.5m head of cattle[1] - I think that qualifies as a "large amount". And you can add 6m head of sheep and over 1.5m pigs. About 40% of Ireland's CO2 equivalent comes from agriculture/agri-business. [1] https://ahdb.org.uk/news/irish-cattle-and-sheep-numbers-rise-in-2022 https://ahdb.org.uk/news/irish-cattle-and-sheep-numbers-rise...
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Montana doesn’t even make the top ten list for cattle per state. It’s more that there is nobody there except cattle, not that it is a cattle dense location. That’s only about 3% of the cows in the US.
  - oulu2006 3y ago
    That's nothing. At New Zealand's peak we had a 22 sheep to person ratio, now it's still 5 to 1. New Zealand also has >2 to 1 ratio of cows to humans as well.
Retric 3y ago
While agriculture makes up a larger percentage of Montana‘a economy industry overall is significantly lower as is the GDP per capita. In terms of total GDP for each, Agriculture really doesn’t explain the discrepancy. What does is mostly transportation and heavy use of coal (44% vs 7%). Montana for example see a lot of out of state trucks cross the state. America is often praised for its rail network but it’s underutilized when you consider our geography and transportation needs.
hinkley 3y ago
Ireland has over four and a half times the population of Montana, so the intensity should be higher.
to11mtm 3y ago
My very-ignorant assumption would have been peat, although IDK whether the emissions are counted at source or burning site (also, IDK whether peat is still an export...)
- derriz 3y ago
  The last peat burning plant shut down two years ago[1]. Industrial peat harvesting has ceased. A limited amount of peat harvesting is allowed but just at traditional/family/domestic scales. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Ree_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Ree_Power_Station
gorgoiler 3y ago
Pop Land Cows/Herd Sheep ie 5.1M 7Mha 7.4M 2.5M 5.9M MT 1.1M 38Mha 2.2M 1.3M 200k without calves^ The intuition most people have is that CO2 is a people scale problem and Ireland has 5x Montana’s population, even though Montana is 5x more spacious. The cows are significant — methane is awful. [edit: my Irish cow number was out by a factor of 3x, and I’ve separated cows-inc-calves from the adult herd.] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverview.php?state=MONTANA https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverv... https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-clsjp/cropsandlivestockprovisionaljune2022/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-clsjp/cro...
entropyie 3y ago
Ireland is not some PO box tax haven, despite what folks like to say on HN... ;-) We have significant pharma and agri-business, plus we make microchips (see Intel, Pfizer etc...)

local_issues 3y ago

Has enormous coal mines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_River_Basin

melling 3y ago

“Gotta start somewhere” We’re about 40 years into “getting started”. One of the main problems was identified in 1985. https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI https://youtu.be/Wp-WiNXH6hI

irjustin 3y ago
> We’re about 40 years into “getting started”. This describes America way too accurately.
- JieJie 3y ago
  "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing: after they've tried everything else." — Winston Churchill
  - thfuran 3y ago
    I wish I had his confidence.
thfuran 3y ago
1985? It's been known since the 1850s that atmospheric carbon dioxide and water vapor contribute to the greenhouse effect.
- melling 3y ago
  I didn’t say we discovered the greenhouse effect in 1985. I said we started addressing the issue about 40 years ago. Actually, the Carl Sagan video is still worthwhile. He did an excellent job.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    >I said we started addressing the issue about 40 years ago. You said "One of the main problems was identified in 1985".