4 ms·

If it looks anything like government and union-run public schools, not good. For example, Chicago public school teachers get paid more than any other school sy

If it looks anything like government and union-run public schools, not good. For example, Chicago public school teachers get paid more than any other school system in the US (from $60k for a new teacher to $114k for the most experienced) and the schools have some of, if not the worst educational outcomes: in 2019, 1 in 4 7th graders could not read at grade level

wernercd 3y ago
[flagged]
- treetoppin 3y ago
  It’s shocking how much this gets thrown around, yet there are countless people who are alive only because someone from the government showed up to help. A democratic government is no more or less corrupt then the people they serve.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    The government does help... I have been helped by the government at times in my life. But. That doesn't negate my stance that everything they touch becomes worse, more expensive and we all suffer. Healthcare? Some people are saved. Healthcare has never been more expensive and the unACA was passed on lie - like your plan, lie - keep your doctor, lie - save $2500/year, etc. Childcare? They help a handful of people making it more expensive for everyone else. Lockdowns? Mask mandates? The largest source of disinformation during the COVID "pandemic" was the US Government led by Fauci who has publicly admitted he made up statistics about stuff like "herd immunity" based on polling. Oh, big tech suppressed truth that went against narrative. Pick any topic and you'll find that while yes, the government does help some people some times... on aggregate? the larger and more powerful and the more interference that comes from government the worse we are. I'm a centrist and a realist. We won't exist without government. but only an idiot gives the government more power than ABSOLUTELY necessary and all you have to do is look around to see MOUNTAINS of evidence to that simple truth. or, as you say, "a government is no more or less corrupt than the people they serve". Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. the people they server are corrupted by power... why would government be any different?
- Contusion3532 3y ago
  Yes, let's instead give the money to unaccountable private entities whose sole motive is profit, at the expense of all else. With governments, we can at least vote in different politicians.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hammock 3y ago
    Take a typical private school example, a non-profit parochial school with a mission of promoting its students' pursuit of excellence. The parents are the clients. Anyone with kids in one of these schools can tell you how the administration bends over backwards to please the parents. Much better than “voting in different politicians.” Much MORE accountability
osigurdson 3y ago
Agree. Give governments money, get less back now with strings attached.
Contusion3532 3y ago
Maybe the problems in Chicago's education are outside of the scope of the teachers?
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Problems in educating young children often begin with the family at home, who don't care, won't participate in discipline, and raise a hue and cry every time a teacher wants a better life for the child.
- Auracle 3y ago
  I think it’s a bit of A and B. Children aren’t a blank slate when they get into school. Genetics, parenting, and culture all have an effect. That said, the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous. Imagine if you just had to be a good little coder for a few years, and after that as long as you put any amount of effort in at all you wouldn’t lose your job. I certainly had teachers growing up that were terrible at their jobs. I also had some that were pretty good. Most were mediocre to the point where I don’t think they’d stay employed in a regular non-union type job. At the very least they wouldn’t be getting performance raises.
  - dagw 3y ago
    the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous Had a friend who worked in one of the worst performing public schools in our city. According to him the main problem was that you simply couldn't keep good teachers no matter what you offered. Half the new teachers they hired didn't make it past the first year. Had they started firing teachers who underperformed on top of that they wouldn't have enough teachers left to keep the doors open. edit: not disagreeing with the idea that tenure for teachers is a bad idea, just that I don't think that is the primary problem in these worst cases.
tyoma 3y ago
Chicago public school are extremely effective given the population they have to teach: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-bett... The core problem is poverty, not the school system.
tptacek 3y ago
CPS teachers are not in fact paid more than every other school system; NYC and LA pay more on average, and if you adjust for cost of living, Cleveland is a better deal. Meanwhile: the big sticking points with the CPS unions --- of which I am not a fan --- are class size and support staff, which are not pocket-lining issues for the teachers.
- kasey_junk 3y ago
  The CPS unions have made lots of things negotiating positions in the last few years, from school nurses and social workers to veteran teacher pay scales and disciplinary rights. Classifying their position one way or another is impossible. If anything the CTU has been doing everything in their power to make sure the real problem, pensions, is never on the bargaining table. They are argument #1 against public employee unions if only because they are so obviously hosing their current members on behalf of their previous and soon to be previous members. That said your broader point still stands, there is nothing strange about their compensation or outcomes when compared to peer organizations.

wernercd 3y ago

[flagged]

treetoppin 3y ago
It’s shocking how much this gets thrown around, yet there are countless people who are alive only because someone from the government showed up to help. A democratic government is no more or less corrupt then the people they serve.
- wernercd 3y ago
  The government does help... I have been helped by the government at times in my life. But. That doesn't negate my stance that everything they touch becomes worse, more expensive and we all suffer. Healthcare? Some people are saved. Healthcare has never been more expensive and the unACA was passed on lie - like your plan, lie - keep your doctor, lie - save $2500/year, etc. Childcare? They help a handful of people making it more expensive for everyone else. Lockdowns? Mask mandates? The largest source of disinformation during the COVID "pandemic" was the US Government led by Fauci who has publicly admitted he made up statistics about stuff like "herd immunity" based on polling. Oh, big tech suppressed truth that went against narrative. Pick any topic and you'll find that while yes, the government does help some people some times... on aggregate? the larger and more powerful and the more interference that comes from government the worse we are. I'm a centrist and a realist. We won't exist without government. but only an idiot gives the government more power than ABSOLUTELY necessary and all you have to do is look around to see MOUNTAINS of evidence to that simple truth. or, as you say, "a government is no more or less corrupt than the people they serve". Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. the people they server are corrupted by power... why would government be any different?
Contusion3532 3y ago
Yes, let's instead give the money to unaccountable private entities whose sole motive is profit, at the expense of all else. With governments, we can at least vote in different politicians.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hammock 3y ago
  Take a typical private school example, a non-profit parochial school with a mission of promoting its students' pursuit of excellence. The parents are the clients. Anyone with kids in one of these schools can tell you how the administration bends over backwards to please the parents. Much better than “voting in different politicians.” Much MORE accountability

osigurdson 3y ago

Agree. Give governments money, get less back now with strings attached.

Contusion3532 3y ago

Maybe the problems in Chicago's education are outside of the scope of the teachers?

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Problems in educating young children often begin with the family at home, who don't care, won't participate in discipline, and raise a hue and cry every time a teacher wants a better life for the child.
Auracle 3y ago
I think it’s a bit of A and B. Children aren’t a blank slate when they get into school. Genetics, parenting, and culture all have an effect. That said, the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous. Imagine if you just had to be a good little coder for a few years, and after that as long as you put any amount of effort in at all you wouldn’t lose your job. I certainly had teachers growing up that were terrible at their jobs. I also had some that were pretty good. Most were mediocre to the point where I don’t think they’d stay employed in a regular non-union type job. At the very least they wouldn’t be getting performance raises.
- dagw 3y ago
  the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous Had a friend who worked in one of the worst performing public schools in our city. According to him the main problem was that you simply couldn't keep good teachers no matter what you offered. Half the new teachers they hired didn't make it past the first year. Had they started firing teachers who underperformed on top of that they wouldn't have enough teachers left to keep the doors open. edit: not disagreeing with the idea that tenure for teachers is a bad idea, just that I don't think that is the primary problem in these worst cases.

tyoma 3y ago

Chicago public school are extremely effective given the population they have to teach: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-better-way-to-compare-public-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-bett... The core problem is poverty, not the school system.

tptacek 3y ago

CPS teachers are not in fact paid more than every other school system; NYC and LA pay more on average, and if you adjust for cost of living, Cleveland is a better deal. Meanwhile: the big sticking points with the CPS unions --- of which I am not a fan --- are class size and support staff, which are not pocket-lining issues for the teachers.

kasey_junk 3y ago
The CPS unions have made lots of things negotiating positions in the last few years, from school nurses and social workers to veteran teacher pay scales and disciplinary rights. Classifying their position one way or another is impossible. If anything the CTU has been doing everything in their power to make sure the real problem, pensions, is never on the bargaining table. They are argument #1 against public employee unions if only because they are so obviously hosing their current members on behalf of their previous and soon to be previous members. That said your broader point still stands, there is nothing strange about their compensation or outcomes when compared to peer organizations.