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19 year old from Florida commits suicide on Justin.tv
Dude, a kid just offed himself on your service, and BOILERPLATE is the best you can do?
- zack 18y agoQuestion: how do I downvote people.
- palish 18y agoYou need a certain (small) amount of karma before you can downvote people. At that point, you'll see a downarrow below each comment uparrow. That was done to prevent people from creating new accounts for the purpose of repeatedly downvoting someone.
- lliiffee 18y agoYou need to reach a certain "Karma" threshold. (I believe it is something in the range of 50-100)
- Allocator2008 18y agoReminds me of that James Woods film, "Videodrome", an existential musing on reality, specifically, television being more "real" than real life. While dated, one could update the "Videodrome" movie concept for the internet age. Obviously, Justin.tv did nothing wrong, in terms of the fact one cannot edit live video. It does bring up questions about the need for sensationalism, that somehow there is a collective need for it, almost like an archtype.
- jasonbentley 18y agoA kid broadcasts his death on your service, allegedly egged on by your community, and your CEO statement falls back on cut-and-paste boilerplate? Do better. Fast.
- patio11 18y ago>> your CEO statement falls back on cut-and-paste boilerplate? >> You HAVE to fall on boilerplate or you will be crucified, by your lawyer if no one else. You just have to pick the right boilerplate: If what you say has happened, that is a terrible tragedy. We will be conducting an internal investigation of the matter. Justin.tv in no way condones comments of the nature you have described. If we find that someone has breached our acceptable comment policies, we will deal with it as harshly as allowed to by law.
- jasonbentley 18y agoIt's entirely possible, and should be second nature for any CEO, to draft a statement that's both legally prudent AND shows a modicum of empathy. What they shouldn't do is try to throw their own role into question until the facts are on the table. Try this: "Everyone at Justin.tv is deeply shocked and saddened by this news. In the upcoming days, we will conduct a thorough investigation of the events surrounding this incident, and will cooperate fully with local police and federal authorities. Once all the facts have been gathered and analyzed, we will release an additional statement. Until that time, we will refrain from further comment, except to say that our thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Biggs's family and friends as they come to grips with a sudden, tragic loss."
- jyothi 18y agoIts not what you say that matters but the action - what you feel and do. Yes Justin.tv can say for PR "oh I am deeply shocked and we here would all mourn for 30 days." Lets restrict animated false talks. edit: I know I am going to be downmodded for being bluntly realistic.
- jasonbentley 18y agoI'd wager that everyone at Justin.tv is shocked and saddened. Too bad nobody knows that for sure.
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- tdavis 18y agoPills? If you're going to live broadcast your own death, make it more interesting than watching paint dry. Sheesh.
- comatose_kid 18y agoI'm guessing your day job involves creating content for greeting cards?
- tdavis 18y agoThis reply makes every down-vote worth it. Good show, sir!
- river_styx 18y agoI actually had to scroll up to the banner to make sure I was still on Hacker News and not reddit.
- lacker 18y agoActually he's a cofounder of ticketstumbler.
- dbrush 18y agoWhich makes his comment even more confounding.
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- jfarmer 18y agoSeriously?
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- goldsmith 18y agohe told u he was hardcore
- rms 18y agotroll post, but you gave me a phrase that let me google a similar case I was trying to find, so: thanks.
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- pchivers 18y agoI downvoted this comment, thinking it was just a silly remark, but now I realize that it's a reference to the Brandon Vedas death: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas
- run4yourlives 18y agoWhich doesn't make it any less disrespectful.
- swombat 18y agoSo what? Disrespect is at the heart of much great humour.
- run4yourlives 18y agoFeel free to crack jokes at the next funeral you attend then. I'm sure the other attendees will be highly amused. More to the heart of much great humour is timing.
- swombat 18y agoIs HackerNews a funeral now? Or are you suggesting that this thread is that hapless teenager's virtual burial place?
- tsally 18y agoThis is one of those critical moments that may well define how people think about this company in the future. As mentioned before, the CEO needs to do better, right away. Just to clarify, I am referring to the response, not to the actual event.
- goldsmith 18y agoI don't really see how this would define how people see the company behind Justin.tv at all. You would have to find a pretty delusional person to claim that IRC had its reputation sullied by Brandon Vedas when he did the same thing a few years ago.
- jasonbentley 18y agoHe's not talking about the incident. He's talking about the CEO's bad response, and the deafening silence since.
- tsally 18y agoHe >:-0. And yes, I was not referring to the actual incident, but rather the response.
- dbrush 18y agoThis also might be a critical moment when people have to decide what rights and responsibilities a site has to the content it distributes, whether that be HD-DVD keys or a video stream of one's suicide.
- marvin 18y agoI'd never bet my company on a political shift happening exactly when I need it to.
- fallentimes 18y agoGod the media is going to try to blame Justin.tv for this. While the CEO's statement was bad, he was probably caught off guard and didn't know what to say. At least I hope that's what happened.
- mrtron 18y agoThe only thing worse than media bandwagoning issues is people attempting to predict how that process.
- fallentimes 18y agoI'm just going off what happened last time and the time before that. Why's predicting the media so bad again?
- rms 18y agoSad story. I'm sure they'll get a new statement out. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Vedas
- jedc 18y agoThis is horrible. Hopefully it gives the Justin.tv community a reality check. They were egging him on?!? As someone who volunteers on a suicide helpline, I'm amazed that people won't condemn that kind of behavior before it causes real harm.
- goldsmith 18y agoI understand your sentiment, but if you think that this wouldn't occur in many communities that have a large base of users, you are off base. I don't just mean places like 4chan- have you ever read comments on Youtube videos?
- Hexstream 18y agoTo be frank I often surprise myself with the tastelessness of my own comments on Youtube, when I bother to make one there.
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- swombat 18y ago1) They weren't egging him on, apparently, just letting him get on with it without interfering. 2) This is a very well known psychological effect called "diffusion of responsibility". It's the same effect that allows hundreds of people to walk by while someone is being beaten up in the street, when almost none of them would just ignore the event if they were alone or in a very small group with no one else around. It's neither surprising, nor "wrong" per se - it's just human nature.
- dangrover 18y agoA similar thing happened on a site that I co-founded: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-01-rampage-messages_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-01-rampage-messa... It was pretty horrific. We spent about a week being interviewed by the media and trying to limit the damage both to the site and to the perception of AS.
- fallentimes 18y agoJust curious - did you contemplate not even responding to the media? Or were you pretty much forced to? What sort of long-term impact did it have on your site?
- dangrover 18y agoThe problem was that the Will Freund incident, and the exposure it received, threatened to cast all people with Aspergers as deranged homicidal maniacs. A few media outlets were sensitive towards the issues involved and wrote thoughtfully. Others, however, were sensationalist and did the opposite of what we hoped (e.g. Geraldo's show on FOX).
- mattmaroon 18y agoYou know that actually is pretty sad. I've heard a lot of rumors about Aspergers and violence being linked, but a cursory internet search seems to show that there's little or no evidence. As if sufferers didn't have enough problems to deal with.
- electromagnetic 18y agoFrom what I've seen, any link between Aspergers and violence is largely irrelevant. When people who are already socially isolated are mocked and ridiculed by 'normal' people throughout their lives, then it isn't a case of Aspergers being linked to violence it's a case of victims getting revenge and if human history tells us anything it's that victims often go for revenge. If I was repeatedly mocked and ridiculed, it would only be a matter of time before I went on a killing spree.
- joja 18y agoProtip: This is not Justin.TV's fault. This is no ones fault but the adult's (he was over 18). It really is that simple - though you wouldn't know it from the media. America: where self-entitlement lives on and accountability goes to die.
- fuzzmeister 18y agoThat is true, but regardless, egging someone on who appears to be on the edge of suicide is simply inhuman.
- palish 18y agoAre you saying androids did this?
- Prrometheus 18y agoStuff like this is bound to happen on a live broadcast site. There's six billion people out there. Every conceivable behavior will be broadcast.
- ErrantX 18y agoI think before one can make comments like that you need ot have the FULL story. Unless people here are parto f the community and new the guy (it seems he cried wolf several times) you cant really pass judgement on what was said (except in some of the cases...). I also see (in the threads cache) people telling him it was a bad idea. I really doubt he was listening to any of them anyway....
- brandong 18y agoAlthough the events were pretty horrific (if you've read the original bodybuilding thread - now removed), it is worth keeping in mind that this particular individual had attempted this several other times in the same community. After the first many times, it appeared to almost be a running joke- until, of course, it wasn't.
- jmackinn 18y agoJust because justin.tv may not have been at fault doesn't mean that they won't share in the blame.
- DaniFong 18y agoI'm holding back tears. We must find a way to make the internet a nicer place. Such astonishing cruelty breeds here. Why?
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- tlrobinson 18y agoI think for a lot of people there's a huge disconnect between internet and reality. On the internet it's often just words on a page, with no association to real people. Also, there's so much shocking material and people joking around on the Internet sometimes it's hard to realize what's "real" and what's not. People like guy who pranked Zed Shaw a couple weeks ago certainly don't help: http://zedshaw.com/blog/2008-10-30.html http://zedshaw.com/blog/2008-10-30.html
- dbrush 18y agoThe scarier issue is that for some people there really isn't a disconnect.
- sofal 18y agoHaving a vile, boisterous, abusive, and slanderous alter ego for your blog personality probably doesn't help too much either.
- jrockway 18y agoYeah, let's all be really nice and talk about how much we like flowers. Seriously though, Zed's personality may suck, but it makes for great reading. As a blog reader, that's all I really care about.
- jimbokun 18y agoThis shows why Zed acted appropriately. It just as easily could have been someone like this kid who killed himself. Better to find yourself pranked than to not investigate and find out someone died and wondering if you could have done something to alter the outcome.
- jonknee 18y agoReason number 245 why Justin.tv won't be able to sell advertising.
- debt 18y agoHonestly. Justin.tv is not doing well. The service is shoddy, every channel is riddled with pedophiles and now this.
- axod 18y ago"every channel is riddled with pedophiles" Seriously? Do you have proof of this?
- jrockway 18y agoI think the statement is probably technically true. Some percentage of the population is a pedophile, some percentage of the population uses justin.tv. It is likely that there is an overlap. I'm sure Slashdot, news.yc, and Reddit are all "riddled with pedophiles" also. Who cares?
- jonknee 18y agoSlashdot, news.yc, and Reddit don't involve kids broadcasting video out of the bedroom.
- debt 18y agoVisit one of the channels.
- uuilly 18y agoI'm sorry to the family and friends of the kid, suicide is the only kind of death that never makes sense no matter how much time passes... As for justin.tv this could cut both ways. The family could sue, their traffic could go nuclear or both could happen. I don't think justin.tv did anything wrong but if you can sue McDonalds for making coffee too hot you definitely have a shot at this. This could also make national news and justin.tv will attract millions of viewers. I think that they need to be really careful to play down any real or perceived financial benefit that comes from this. They got a lot of attention when the cops banged down his door and this will be a much bigger deal. Being "the place to go" for shocking live videos is a double edged sword. Maybe they should donate to charity in the kid's name? While a confused teenager's suicide is a tragedy, j.tv is also a victim here. The kid unwittingly put a bunch of other young guys he's never met who are just trying to make a startup in the middle of what may become a major witch hunt. Good luck with this...
- swombat 18y agoIdiots: also available on justin.tv.
- auston 18y agoCrazy stuff. Poor kid. Just show's you can't take what you're told online seriously.
- maurycy 18y agoIt is a tragedy and I feel sorry for him. This is, I think, the only appropriate comment.
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- goodgoblin 18y agoPlease remove this.
- dill_day 18y agohttp://blog.justin.tv/2008/11/moment-of-silence.html http://blog.justin.tv/2008/11/moment-of-silence.html Justin.tv staff would like to take a moment to recognize and reflect upon the tragedy that occurred within our community today. We respect the privacy of the broadcaster and his family during this challenging time. Michael Seibel CEO, Justin.tv
- jnil 18y agoThis is sad, really sad.
- adammichaelc 18y agoMy heart and my prayers go out to this guy's family and to all families who have similarly suffered.
- boredguy8 18y agoThis has happened before and will happen again. The first internet-based 'televised' event I know of is the 'ripper' event on IRC channel #shroomery. Logs are stilla vailable online, one instance at http://b00mb0x.org/blog/pic/chattrans.html http://b00mb0x.org/blog/pic/chattrans.html
- palish 18y agoWow, check this out: http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/bad_move_moderator.jpg http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/315/random_pics/bad_move_m... ... The image shows two messages on the bodybuilder.com forums. "A poster has said he was going to OD on JTV in the link here: http://www.justin.tv/feels_like_ecstacy http://www.justin.tv/feels_like_ecstacy. It seems like he is not breathing by the looks of the stream. Please track his IP and alert someone." And in response, a bodybuilder.com forum moderator said: "he's an attention whore, you should see all the threads he starts, then deletes" This might've all turned out differently had the moderators acted on the information available. I'm not saying that it should be illegal for the moderators to not care, just that I personally would have at least looked at the information the poster provided before dismissing it as "just another attempt at attention whoring". If you wanted to get to know the kid a little bit, or if you wanted to know the mentality of someone on the brink of suicide, here's a link to Bigg's blog: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=206599326 http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll...
- anonhuman 18y agoSad for his family and friends. Nothing to add about the legal/corporate aspects, as you have already addressed those. Human tragedy. Here's a helpful resource for the prevention of teen suicide you can share if you wish... http://www.SpeakUpSaveLives.org http://www.SpeakUpSaveLives.org
- mikkom 18y ago> The contention that filming and uploading (and even hosting video of) a crime is a crime as well might not be valid, but given the very nature of live broadcasts, the issue becomes more complicated. Is suicide a crime?
- jrockway 18y agoIs suicide a crime? Yup. Dead people don't pay taxes, after all.
- run4yourlives 18y agoNo. But in the US you can be held civilly liable for all sorts of things, crime or not. I think that's what justin.tv is more concerned with.
- caveman82 18y agoWhich begs the question of justin.tv's whole raison d'etre: How the f--- does facilitating self-perpetuated voyeurism (to this particular degree) add value to society?
- yters 18y agoYou know, people would do this less often if they generated less public attention. Ultimately, it's up to the person to save themselves, and if they choose not to, that's their choice. Plus, we should start calling suicide for what it is: cowardice and selfishness, instead of fawning over the poor souls who didn't receive enough love and attention.
- yters 18y agowww.nonhackernews.com
- pavelludiq 18y agoLife's hard. I don't know if that many of us here on HN have had suicidal thoughts, but i have. I wasn't serious though, i was more like an attention whore. There is this thing that keeps us going, and that thing is very deeep, and is older that our species, and when that thing conflicts with our modern brain, we get confused. What is the meaning of life? Why should i go on? The answer to these questions can't be "our instincts tell us to", it doesn't make sense, but it does, actually life is worth just for the living, and we should just go on, because our instincts tell us, they know better, they had billions(not millions) of years to evolve and refine them selfs, our minds have been around for only a few million years, which one should you trust? I have more to live for than what my instincts tell me, but many don't, and they have the power to ignore them, and we have no right to judge them, they overcame the most important of all our instincts with their minds, that takes will, even if its a stupid decision, its a valid one(not always of course).