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Set phrases aren’t consciously created, they’re the accumulated contextual/cultural meaning that people remember for the phrase, until people no longer use it t
by jprete 3y ago
Set phrases aren’t consciously created, they’re the accumulated contextual/cultural meaning that people remember for the phrase, until people no longer use it to point at the literal meaning. If some group always drinks coffee and never tea, then eventually “strong hot drink” means “coffee”, and an outsider who asks for their own group’s “strong hot drink” (always meaning tea) is going to get a bitter surprise.
- Brian_K_White 3y agoI don't think they would be surprised, since anyone having used the language enough to get to that point would know how it works, and they would know that they are not in their usual context. It's like leaving out units of measure. We sometimes omit them, but we practically never lose track of when it makes sense to or have to consciously think about it.
- baq 3y agoThe first time my ~3 yo daughter saw the sea she exclaimed 'POOL!' Make of this what you wish ;)
- Brian_K_White 3y agoI have a convertible. My nephew in law? (Wife's brothers son, now I wonder how you express that in Toki, you don't bother, he's just young relative maybe?) had seen that car when I visit several times over the course of a few years, and it just happened that in his entire short life up to then, he had never seen it with the top up. One day we show up with the top up. We're inside and he comes in to tell his parents my car has "a cover or shield" I don't know why but we all love this.
- argiopetech 3y agoThat's just a newphew, in the same way that my brother in law is my daughter's uncle.
- uxamanda 3y agoNice example of when a typo expresses the idea better. :-D
- esperent 3y agoHow would you differentiate between black tea and coffee in toki pona?
- reverius42 3y agoNot a Toki Pona speaker (yet), but I'd guess some variation/inclusion of "liquid from leaf" vs. "liquid from bean".
- esperent 3y agoThere's no specific word or term for either leaf or bean though.
- worldsayshi 3y agoCould you add a phrase for beans in there?
- traverseda 3y agoNo word for beans but "kasi" means (leaf, herb, wood, plant), or maybe you have a green tea, "jelo" mean (yellow, light green).
- Brian_K_White 3y agoI think the idea is you don't bother to unless it actually matters in a given situation, and when it does, you just add more words. Probably writers get this more easily. I think they are trained and edited constantly to avoid unnecessary fluff, and identify what is pointful atmospheric detail and what it pointless detail. Does the story actually change depending on what drink dad enjoyed with his morning paper? Maybe if it was spiked, or if it was a pointed aspect of his character that he drank chocolate which others find childish, and he knows it and doesn't care. So it could, but in 99% of scenes I don't think it does matter, it only matters that it's a common thing that people do, and a common setting prop. If the language were not English and the standard way to say "morning coffee" was something else instead of specifically coffee, the scenes and stories all function exactly the same.
- 3y ago
- tgv 3y agoSame goes for accents. Any group will develop an accent, and it will be dominated by the group's native accent. Toki Pona won't be able to escape those, not even at small scale. I also predict the inclusion of loan words, should the language ever go beyond purists.
- brabel 3y agoWhen you ask for "a cup of coffee" in different countries, you may also get pretty surprised at what you get (it may be a tiny cup, or a large glass, sugary or bitter, with milk or without...).
- kwhitefoot 3y agoBut you probably will get coffee.
- Xorakios 3y agonot even just countries - my family from California visited NYC and kept getting frustrated when they said just wanted a "regular coffee," until someone finally realized they meant "black coffee" and it was racist to say black, so they had to order "plain coffee, no milk or sugar"