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Sure, I'm saying: - there are big differences between US capitalism and European social democracy - European social democracies are trending more socialist al

Sure, I'm saying: - there are big differences between US capitalism and European social democracy - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time > European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so. Ehhhh communist movements, multiple devastating wars, and unions had a hand in it too.

rsynnott 3y ago
> - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time Eh? Which ones? As a European this is very much news to be; not much seizing of the means of production going on. If anything, some divesting of the means of production; heavily regulated privatisation of state energy, transport etc monopolies has been going on all over Western Europe for a while. I realise that in the US, the colloquial definition of ‘socialist’ these days is more or less “not actively going around kicking poor people”, but the idea that Europe is becoming more socialist by any reasonable definition is a bit out there.
- camgunz 3y ago
  There's a recent rightward shift for sure, but long term benefits are increasing, unions are gaining power, and you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies. This is the power dynamic described by socialism: people control companies, not the other way around.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    >you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies No, you are seeing governments force green policies against the will of the majority.
rhaway84773 3y ago
https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking This is a ranking of economic freedom which strongly aligns with capitalism. The U.S. ranks 25th behind European countries like Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland, etc.
- camgunz 3y ago
  It looks like this ranks things like freedom to invest, trade, etc., none of which are incompatible with socialism.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    Investment directly implies private ownership of the means of production.

rsynnott 3y ago

> - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time Eh? Which ones? As a European this is very much news to be; not much seizing of the means of production going on. If anything, some divesting of the means of production; heavily regulated privatisation of state energy, transport etc monopolies has been going on all over Western Europe for a while. I realise that in the US, the colloquial definition of ‘socialist’ these days is more or less “not actively going around kicking poor people”, but the idea that Europe is becoming more socialist by any reasonable definition is a bit out there.

camgunz 3y ago
There's a recent rightward shift for sure, but long term benefits are increasing, unions are gaining power, and you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies. This is the power dynamic described by socialism: people control companies, not the other way around.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies No, you are seeing governments force green policies against the will of the majority.

rhaway84773 3y ago

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking This is a ranking of economic freedom which strongly aligns with capitalism. The U.S. ranks 25th behind European countries like Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland, etc.

camgunz 3y ago
It looks like this ranks things like freedom to invest, trade, etc., none of which are incompatible with socialism.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  Investment directly implies private ownership of the means of production.