10 ms·

This isn't particularly well-argued. Just a lot of handwavy grievance about "elites" as though there's some kind of coordinated conspiracy.

jackmott42 3y ago
A the top end there is a lot of coordination, big money conservatives get together at CPAC and other venues to make plans, each political party is a powerful coordinated force of elites, they are all on each other's boards, etc. However this article did not present any evidence of any given group of elites doing this, for this reason, so...
- stanleydrew 3y ago
  Yeah I don't generally disagree, but the coordination usually has a more specific goal with more specific actions. Like, let's spend a bunch of money to buy ads supporting some legislation so that we can get lower taxes. Let's use our influence over corporate decision making to try to get people to use buildings in order to prop up commercial real estate asset prices feels like a bank-shot at best.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Maybe these points were assumed? Doesn't everyone know that corporations Boards, and C-suit, and Republican donors, etc, etc, etc.. All vacation together, meet together, perhaps even chug beers with Supreme Court Justices together. Does the author really need to 'prove' this in order to reference it??? This whole post is people arguing about what level of 'coordination' does it take before we can call it a 'conspiracy'. There isn't any 'conspiracy', it's just friendly chatting and innuendo, but of course there is a common 'problem with a solution we should perhaps generally steer towards (wink)'.
itronitron 3y ago
Yeah, the article is kind of all over the place.
davidw 3y ago
Kind of an "Ugh, Capitalism" take - https://www.infinitescroll.us/p/ugh-capitalism https://www.infinitescroll.us/p/ugh-capitalism
- camgunz 3y ago
  Weren't people right about this though? Institutionalized racism and sexism was everywhere, neoliberalism created the most unequal society since the era we unironically call "the robber-baron era", the carceral system is truly heinous (the ban on weed alone was just a joke), etc etc etc.
  - chanakya 3y ago
    Sure, there are all sorts of problems with capitalism. But as Churchill said about democracy, it the worst form of economic organization except for all the others that have been tried from time to time.
    - camgunz 3y ago
      Eh I would say Socialism as practiced in Western Europe and the Nordics is doing better. They're out doing the US in most important metrics, and they're trending more Socialist (though we'll see what intensifying climate migration and other climate change consequences bring).
      - davidw 3y ago
        Anyone who thinks that, say, Denmark is not a mixed economy with a strong bit of capitalism as well as a strong social safety net has never dealt with a kid who wants to buy lots of Lego.
        camgunz 3y ago
        There are important differences between Denmark and the US though. Aren't we saying the same thing?
pdonis 3y ago
I read the article more as an implied warning: a lot of paper wealth is tied up in commercial real estate, and that wealth could evaporate. The people who own that paper wealth aren't just going to sit back and let that happen. Yes, for many companies there is no direct way to force them to bring workers back to the office. But it might be worth taking some time to think about what else might be tried.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  I would note that the Grand Commercial Real Estate Conspiracy was not notably successful in getting people to go to brick and mortar retail; if there was an effective conspiracy, you’d expect it to have put a horse’s head in Amazon’s bed.
asdff 3y ago
You don't need a coordinated conspiracy if the incentives of each person in the chain line up to this inevitability.
- mpalmer 3y ago
  Sound point, but the fact that we're forced to do this parsing in the comments means readers of the linked piece will happily continue to use "the elite" as a placeholder for whatever they already believe.
  - galangalalgol 3y ago
    Legally, doesn't a conspiracy require proof of communication? I think that communication can be indirect or even negative in nature, but it has to be there. But if everyone that owns commercial real estate has lower margins, that would eventually lower property taxes for such properties, which hurts city revenue. City planners can connect the dots and push for rto, no communication necessary.
    - 1attice 3y ago
      I could be wrong here but I don't read this as a claim of conspiracy. To my mind, this is more a systems-level description of currents in capital. Yes, there's a clickbaity headline about 'elites', but if you think more in terms of wealth doing things of its own accord (similar to how e.g. Dawkins got us talking about selfish genes -- selfish dollars?) then this observation might cash out after all. That said, I do agree that the editorial style of the article is needlessly conspiratorial --- it likely appeals strongly to leftists (like me) who see and sense that capital flows and floes seem to have a mind of their own, but who (unlike me) think this requires smoky backroom deals.
      - galangalalgol 3y ago
        It would almost be better if it required orchestration. Maximizing profit is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof....
deet 3y ago
The article is not well argued, yes. But there is direct evidence that politicians are influencing corporations to alter return to office policies: - Mayor of SF asking businesses to pledge to implement RTO policies: https://sfist.com/2022/03/03/mayor-breed-would-like-you-back-downtown-working-in-the-office-again-thank-you-very-much/ https://sfist.com/2022/03/03/mayor-breed-would-like-you-back... - Mayor of NYC basically doing the same: https://archive.is/si6xd https://archive.is/si6xd
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Happened in Redmond too
- symlinkk 3y ago
  2nd link is broken
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  > But there is direct evidence that politicians are influencing corporations to alter return to office policies: But no evidence that this is related to property values alone or even in large part. SF is desperate to ensure the downtown does not enter a full-on doom loop which would impact all businesses as well as anyone who lives there or visits regularly. [0] Other knock-on effects include BART facing severe financial problems due to low ridership. They want people back any way they can get them so San Francisco does not end up like Detroit. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-crime-downtown-doom-loop-e5fcd7ba https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-crime-downtown-do...
  - hodgesrm 3y ago
    p.s., Rather than downvoting it would be more productive to supply evidence of contrary views. I'm happy to be proven wrong. It happens constantly.
    - caskstrength 3y ago
      You were probably down-voted because your comment reads like you think that is okay to treat unwilling people like cash cows to prop SF's downtown and mass transit. That is doubly ironic coming from S-fucking-"we don't want you tech bros gentrifying our city"-F officials.
throway2452 3y ago
> as though there's some kind of coordinated conspiracy. I don't see how this is different from consensus among actors, or rather it looks the same. The label or attribute conspiracy is a tool used to discredit findings or positive correlations. I see now that you think elite is overloaded and programmed to have conspiracy relation. This is not true though according to m-w: "a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence". If you pay attention to main stream media, you will see almost all forms of dissent attributed to conspiracy.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
This isn't the first article on this. A lot of financial news outlets have been pointing out the risk of corporate real estate risks. Making the connection to back-to-office doesn't have to be a coordinated conspiracy. It just has to be a few middle managers being like "Hey Bob in Dev, this is Steve from Operations, I'm in a real bind with the empty office on 5th, can you see about filling it. Sure Man."

jackmott42 3y ago

A the top end there is a lot of coordination, big money conservatives get together at CPAC and other venues to make plans, each political party is a powerful coordinated force of elites, they are all on each other's boards, etc. However this article did not present any evidence of any given group of elites doing this, for this reason, so...

stanleydrew 3y ago
Yeah I don't generally disagree, but the coordination usually has a more specific goal with more specific actions. Like, let's spend a bunch of money to buy ads supporting some legislation so that we can get lower taxes. Let's use our influence over corporate decision making to try to get people to use buildings in order to prop up commercial real estate asset prices feels like a bank-shot at best.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Maybe these points were assumed? Doesn't everyone know that corporations Boards, and C-suit, and Republican donors, etc, etc, etc.. All vacation together, meet together, perhaps even chug beers with Supreme Court Justices together. Does the author really need to 'prove' this in order to reference it??? This whole post is people arguing about what level of 'coordination' does it take before we can call it a 'conspiracy'. There isn't any 'conspiracy', it's just friendly chatting and innuendo, but of course there is a common 'problem with a solution we should perhaps generally steer towards (wink)'.

itronitron 3y ago

Yeah, the article is kind of all over the place.

davidw 3y ago

Kind of an "Ugh, Capitalism" take - https://www.infinitescroll.us/p/ugh-capitalism https://www.infinitescroll.us/p/ugh-capitalism

camgunz 3y ago
Weren't people right about this though? Institutionalized racism and sexism was everywhere, neoliberalism created the most unequal society since the era we unironically call "the robber-baron era", the carceral system is truly heinous (the ban on weed alone was just a joke), etc etc etc.
- chanakya 3y ago
  Sure, there are all sorts of problems with capitalism. But as Churchill said about democracy, it the worst form of economic organization except for all the others that have been tried from time to time.
  - camgunz 3y ago
    Eh I would say Socialism as practiced in Western Europe and the Nordics is doing better. They're out doing the US in most important metrics, and they're trending more Socialist (though we'll see what intensifying climate migration and other climate change consequences bring).
    - davidw 3y ago
      Anyone who thinks that, say, Denmark is not a mixed economy with a strong bit of capitalism as well as a strong social safety net has never dealt with a kid who wants to buy lots of Lego.
      - camgunz 3y ago
        There are important differences between Denmark and the US though. Aren't we saying the same thing?

pdonis 3y ago

I read the article more as an implied warning: a lot of paper wealth is tied up in commercial real estate, and that wealth could evaporate. The people who own that paper wealth aren't just going to sit back and let that happen. Yes, for many companies there is no direct way to force them to bring workers back to the office. But it might be worth taking some time to think about what else might be tried.

rsynnott 3y ago
I would note that the Grand Commercial Real Estate Conspiracy was not notably successful in getting people to go to brick and mortar retail; if there was an effective conspiracy, you’d expect it to have put a horse’s head in Amazon’s bed.

asdff 3y ago

You don't need a coordinated conspiracy if the incentives of each person in the chain line up to this inevitability.

mpalmer 3y ago
Sound point, but the fact that we're forced to do this parsing in the comments means readers of the linked piece will happily continue to use "the elite" as a placeholder for whatever they already believe.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  Legally, doesn't a conspiracy require proof of communication? I think that communication can be indirect or even negative in nature, but it has to be there. But if everyone that owns commercial real estate has lower margins, that would eventually lower property taxes for such properties, which hurts city revenue. City planners can connect the dots and push for rto, no communication necessary.
  - 1attice 3y ago
    I could be wrong here but I don't read this as a claim of conspiracy. To my mind, this is more a systems-level description of currents in capital. Yes, there's a clickbaity headline about 'elites', but if you think more in terms of wealth doing things of its own accord (similar to how e.g. Dawkins got us talking about selfish genes -- selfish dollars?) then this observation might cash out after all. That said, I do agree that the editorial style of the article is needlessly conspiratorial --- it likely appeals strongly to leftists (like me) who see and sense that capital flows and floes seem to have a mind of their own, but who (unlike me) think this requires smoky backroom deals.
    - galangalalgol 3y ago
      It would almost be better if it required orchestration. Maximizing profit is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof....

deet 3y ago

The article is not well argued, yes. But there is direct evidence that politicians are influencing corporations to alter return to office policies: - Mayor of SF asking businesses to pledge to implement RTO policies: https://sfist.com/2022/03/03/mayor-breed-would-like-you-back-downtown-working-in-the-office-again-thank-you-very-much/ https://sfist.com/2022/03/03/mayor-breed-would-like-you-back... - Mayor of NYC basically doing the same: https://archive.is/si6xd https://archive.is/si6xd

aaomidi 3y ago
Happened in Redmond too
symlinkk 3y ago
2nd link is broken
hodgesrm 3y ago
> But there is direct evidence that politicians are influencing corporations to alter return to office policies: But no evidence that this is related to property values alone or even in large part. SF is desperate to ensure the downtown does not enter a full-on doom loop which would impact all businesses as well as anyone who lives there or visits regularly. [0] Other knock-on effects include BART facing severe financial problems due to low ridership. They want people back any way they can get them so San Francisco does not end up like Detroit. [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-crime-downtown-doom-loop-e5fcd7ba https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-crime-downtown-do...
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  p.s., Rather than downvoting it would be more productive to supply evidence of contrary views. I'm happy to be proven wrong. It happens constantly.
  - caskstrength 3y ago
    You were probably down-voted because your comment reads like you think that is okay to treat unwilling people like cash cows to prop SF's downtown and mass transit. That is doubly ironic coming from S-fucking-"we don't want you tech bros gentrifying our city"-F officials.

throway2452 3y ago

> as though there's some kind of coordinated conspiracy. I don't see how this is different from consensus among actors, or rather it looks the same. The label or attribute conspiracy is a tool used to discredit findings or positive correlations. I see now that you think elite is overloaded and programmed to have conspiracy relation. This is not true though according to m-w: "a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence". If you pay attention to main stream media, you will see almost all forms of dissent attributed to conspiracy.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

This isn't the first article on this. A lot of financial news outlets have been pointing out the risk of corporate real estate risks. Making the connection to back-to-office doesn't have to be a coordinated conspiracy. It just has to be a few middle managers being like "Hey Bob in Dev, this is Steve from Operations, I'm in a real bind with the empty office on 5th, can you see about filling it. Sure Man."