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> When a child comes home excited with a great mark, say, “you deserve it! You worked really hard for that mark. Ok, putting aside it's important to be emotion

> When a child comes home excited with a great mark, say, “you deserve it! You worked really hard for that mark. Ok, putting aside it's important to be emotionally warm towards your children and ensure they understand you love them "unconditionally"[1], I do think it's also important to help them to learn retrospect and to work smarter. "What a great mark you've earned! What do you think was working about your approach?" (then praise and encourage them for whatever they say so long as it's remotely reasonable). I just say this because I feel like the "work hard" mentality actually hasnt served me in life. Once you work for a business no one cares how "hard" you work, if it's not smart first. Smart is the more powerful variable, you can work Smart and not hard and be quite successful. But work hard on stupid things? No one cares and you'll be overlooked and even hated on at times. [1] - I'm not a parent, but honestly everyone has a limit, and frankly love should not be truly impossible to lose. My love will stop if they butcher my wife, burn down my house, and call me fat.

com2kid 3y ago
Figuring out an eloquent solution to get work done faster and at higher quality is both smart and hard. It means taking the time to stop and think ahead, while also applying brain power to the problem. The idea of avoiding rewarding ability is that we know it leads to smart kids who never learn how to put forth large amounts of effort, since often times up until college school is so bloody easy, they can skate by w/o developing good study habits.
- imchillyb 3y ago
  The metric for intelligence has been the ability to retain information, and show such ability by regurgitating memorized data. The metric became the target, and the regurgitated data became the goal, and not the memorization or rationalization that was intended. Data over substance, and recognition. We learn about the wars, and their consequence in order to learn from the events. We do not learn about wars so that each of us can spit out meaningless numbers such as the date of the war, what route was taken, and who was fighting. The why is more important than the where. The How is more important than the when.
  - com2kid 3y ago
    > The metric for intelligence has been the ability to retain information, and show such ability by regurgitating memorized data. That is the metric for passing tests in the 1980s maybe. Maybe some TV stereotype of intelligence is someone who can solve a Rubik's Cube fast. Jeopardy also comes to mind. But if you are talking about actual metrics, the ones used to measure intelligence, regurgitating facts is only a small part of that (testing different aspects of memory). > We learn about the wars, and their consequence in order to learn from the events. We do not learn about wars so that each of us can spit out meaningless numbers such as the date of the war, what route was taken, and who was fighting. When I studied history in school it was always with the goal of understanding the underlying motivations of the actors in play. I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. I do understand that things got worse in the US after no child left behind passed, which is unfortunate. > The why is more important than the where. Studying the funding sources of the US Revolutionary War was fascinating, to say the least. (Though I'd say that oftentimes the where and the why are closely linked, especially when it comes to natural resources!)
    - foobarian 3y ago
      > I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. Heh. Reminds me of coming to a (highly regarded) prep-high school in Eastern Eu back in the day. All seemed awesome at first glance. History teacher was ancient, which added to his cachet. Then the first oral exam came. We quickly caught on that this guy would ask a topic, and stop the student as soon as they deviated from the previously spoken lecture. After that it was a race to write every word he said verbatim, and regurgitate on command exactly word for word. I think the biggest contribution this school had for me is I now don’t feel anxious about the American schools my kids attend which many people complain are falling behind other countries, catering to the least common denominator, and similar. Compared to the rote fest I had I’ll take American schools any day :-)
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      > I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. Maybe not, but if you didn’t know when the battles happened you’d have a very difficult time identifying how they influenced each other.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  I think you’re onto the solution here: praise hard work first and foremost but also praise cleverness and resourcefulness just as much.
  - gopher_space 3y ago
    Celebrating a milestone (birthday, graduating, completing a goal) and celebrating qualities that helped reach that milestone are two different things, in my mind. "Did a good job" is a perfectly adequate milestone to celebrate. Adding qualifiers only introduces the idea of limits, imho. There's no point in setting the bar for someone with unknown potential.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
eternityforest 3y ago
Doing postmortem reviews of mistakes is also important, if you are the type without natural competence. I spent a very long time wondering why I was always lost everywhere I go and always making the same mistakes, before I realized the problem was I was expecting my brain to just suddenly be able to do things after lots of practice, rather than using repeatable, failsafe systems like "Just assume you'll forget everything and always set reminders"
Misdicorl 3y ago
Unconditional love is a trope I want to die so badly. It's so.... Selfish? I read it as "You don't matter at all. I'm so big hearted and perfect; isn't it glorious?" I love my kid and wife because of who they are and specific things they do. And I tell them that. And I also tell them they can always change and my love for them will continue and change with them
- smeej 3y ago
  If you think it's possible both to love someone and not think they matter at all, I think you're doing love wrong.
  - Misdicorl 3y ago
    But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you?
    - layer8 3y ago
      I guess the one condition is that they ate the individual that they are, and not some other individual. So it matters that they are that specific individual (e.g. your child). I find the concept problematic as well. In practice there can certainly be limits.
    - jader201 3y ago
      I don’t think you can both love someone while also thinking they “don’t matter at all”. But maybe your definition of love is different. A parent simply telling their child, unconditionally, that they love them isn’t enough. You have to believe they do matter and are worth something. If you can say that about your child despite their many flaws, and potentially how they might hurt you [1], to me is what unconditional love is more about. [1] That is, humans aren’t perfect, and will on occasion hurt other humans, to some extent — especially children that are still developing and trying to figure out what is and isn’t appropriate.
      - Misdicorl 3y ago
bruce511 3y ago
I think what you say yo kids, and what you say to adults should be different. And like either most of "growing up" the transition from one to the other is hard. We want our kids to "work hard" because we know that to get places they will need to be able to do that. "Working hard" is a skill they need to learn. But as adults, in the real world, "hard work" counts for nothing. The world rewards results, not the hours. Working effectively rewards more than working long. It's hard to explain to an employee that despite the fact they work "harder" than their colleagues, they get paid less because they deliver less. "Hard work" counts for very little. Transitioning from hard work, to effective work, can be confusing for a young adult. That doesn't mean teaching children that hard work doesn't matter. It's precisely because they -can- work hard that it's possible to work smart.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  > I think what you say to kids, and what you say to adults should be different. I strongly disagree. Do you have children? Kids are smart and surprisingly logical. You don't need to molly coddle them about the value of hard work or even that they have different abilities to each other. You can deliver the news that they aren't as strong as their sister in a nice way just like you can deliver the news that an employee isn't as productive as their coworker in a nice way (and obviously avoid delivering it at all if possible in both cases). If you want good parenting advice just watch Bluey. Look at how they talk to their children.
bmitc 3y ago
I'd be pretty annoyed, as a child or not, if at every turn I'd be asked to retrospect about an accomplishment or even a failure. Praising children for hard work rather than "for just being smart" is about their own personal wellbeing. Kids who get called smart in their early years have trouble facing real and difficult problems later in life, because they suddenly feel "wait, I'm not really smart" and other such pathological feelings. It's about encouraging problem solving, not just blindly working hard, and teaching that problem solving is a continually evolving process and not some innate thing that you either have or don't have. It's true that the real world doesn't recognize hard work in a consistent way, but I think this is more about personal development and wellbeing rather than implying hard work will make you successful, for some definition of successful.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  > I'd be pretty annoyed, as a child or not, if at every turn I'd be asked to retrospect about an accomplishment or even a failure. Perhaps like: "I wanted you to celebrate/commiserate this emotional thing with me but instead you're always ruining it by trying to make it some kind of school thing--what the fudge, Dad..."
- Guthur 3y ago
  Or more correctly. Congratulations on the mark. I'm sorry we subjected you to such an inhuman peer ranking activity. Society has become so psychotic that it's impossible for us to understand anything unless we quantify it and this is your initiation.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
    Lol, I loved how true this is, damn
- taeric 3y ago
  I mean, would you? It is literally a defining capability for high level performance. Take a breather, enjoy success, but then look at it. Though, make no mistake, there is a ton of variability in kids. I think I could reasonably do this with one kid, but I couldn't with another. And some kids need pressing, some don't seem to.
MaxfordAndSons 3y ago
If your child calling you fat would cause you to revoke your love for them, I hope you're not considering parenthood.
- crummy 3y ago
  there's an "and" in that sentence, not an or.
corethree 3y ago
How about I just praise them if I genuinely feel they deserve it instead of picking and choosing when to praise in attempt to mold them into something I want them to be.
- jewayne 3y ago
  You're picking and choosing in either circumstance, and attempting to mold them in either circumstance.
  - corethree 3y ago
    No conscious choice. I just let my emotions guide the praising. Let fate mold them.
    - gsinclair 3y ago
      A judicious balance of “what comes naturally” and “what research shows is a good idea” is probably best.
      - corethree 3y ago
        What research. And what is the definition of best? Generally speaking eons of evolution has shaped "what comes naturally" to be the parenting traits most effective at enabling survival of the fittest or some other trait that enables mass propagation of genes. But survival of the fittest is just one possible definition of "best".
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      You think your subconscious is “fate”?
      - corethree 3y ago
        Just an expression. I don't use conscious choice. Subconscious choice is more similar to what we understand as fate.
rusk 3y ago
These are separate things. Coach your kids. Praise them when they put in the work. Don't sour their successes by telling them they could do better. Accept them at their ability.
freeopinion 3y ago
I work with and around a lot of really smart people, including for my job. I have a very intimate relationship with the very smartest of those people. I get to see behind the curtain quite a bit. The top 10% have no idea how hard the top 1% work. Many think the top 1% are coasting because everything is so easy for them. I fall into that trap myself a lot. The truth is that most real results take time consuming work. I once had a conversation with somebody who lost their bid for a networking job to some 18-year old kid who "probably just plays a lot of video games." They never saw the 1000 hours the kid had spent the last two years fighting for better network latency. They didn't know the kid could quote two dozen different RFCs and could give you the strengths and weaknesses of 6 different routing protocols. Which candidate was "smarter"? I have no idea. I know which one had spent more hours preparing for the job. Even if their competition thought they were just playing around all hours of the day and night.
- screye 3y ago
  That's one of the annoying realities I am slowly having to face. Among highly technical ICs, the people who are paid $500k/year often do tend to work 2x the people who get paid $200k. Sure, these people are also more efficient, more effective and more knowledgeable. But, most of all, they work some insane hours. It's incredible, they are thinking about work when they're eating, sleeping, on vacation...it's like an obsession. I am in one such ~60 hrs/week job right now, and everyone in an IC role that's paid more than me, works more hours than I do. Yeah, my (supposed) compensation went up with this job hop, but in IC roles, hourly rates stay the same. I love my work & my top 1% coworkers. But man, I look at the ones who are 10 years older than me, and that is not the kind of life I want to be living. I know a person who made millions before 25, and this person had never so much as taken a real vacation, watched a random TV show or played a computer game, despite always having the financial capacity to do so. I am not sure if there is dollar value for which I would give up those precious moments from my teens and 20s.
- wrp 3y ago
  In the psychological research on domain expertise and performance, a common observation is that while greater expertise/performance is generally recognized to be the result of greater effort, people at lower levels vastly underestimate just how much greater effort.
saiya-jin 3y ago
> But work hard on stupid things? No one cares and you'll be overlooked and even hated on at times. You clearly have no experience in multinational corporations, this quality is enough, with a bit of luck (ie don't get fired by chance in some broad firing rounds, your direct manager is not psycho, your whole location is closed etc.) to get quite far. Corps need people who are willing to wade through bureaucracy, cumbersome rules and processes, chase people across globe and tick checklists. Hard work can get all that done, no real brilliance needed. Also there are tons of stupid things that are required by various regulations and laws for example. I mean of course within limits. You are not going to move 10 levels higher to c-suite just by working hard for 2 decades, but having non-trivial career jumps is not unheard of.
doctor_eval 3y ago
A problem with this kind of statement is that it doesn’t take into account that you live with a child pretty much 100% of the time. It’s not like any other personal relationship, especially in the early days. Having a child is intense, and most people without kids simply don’t have the experience to fully appreciate how relentless it is. I write this simply to say that there is plenty of time to praise kids, and plenty of time to coach them. You don’t need to do both, at once, all the time. Ride the highs, survive the lows; the in-between times are there to teach and learn. Edited to add: and have fun
giantg2 3y ago
I agree. Fuck working hard. Working hard leads to being taken advantage of unless you have some leverage and know how to use it.
Condition1952 3y ago
I was convinced by Alfie Kohn’s “Unconditional Parenting” and “Punished by Rewards”. Praise sometimes hides lack of real interest so I give feedback

com2kid 3y ago

Figuring out an eloquent solution to get work done faster and at higher quality is both smart and hard. It means taking the time to stop and think ahead, while also applying brain power to the problem. The idea of avoiding rewarding ability is that we know it leads to smart kids who never learn how to put forth large amounts of effort, since often times up until college school is so bloody easy, they can skate by w/o developing good study habits.

imchillyb 3y ago
The metric for intelligence has been the ability to retain information, and show such ability by regurgitating memorized data. The metric became the target, and the regurgitated data became the goal, and not the memorization or rationalization that was intended. Data over substance, and recognition. We learn about the wars, and their consequence in order to learn from the events. We do not learn about wars so that each of us can spit out meaningless numbers such as the date of the war, what route was taken, and who was fighting. The why is more important than the where. The How is more important than the when.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > The metric for intelligence has been the ability to retain information, and show such ability by regurgitating memorized data. That is the metric for passing tests in the 1980s maybe. Maybe some TV stereotype of intelligence is someone who can solve a Rubik's Cube fast. Jeopardy also comes to mind. But if you are talking about actual metrics, the ones used to measure intelligence, regurgitating facts is only a small part of that (testing different aspects of memory). > We learn about the wars, and their consequence in order to learn from the events. We do not learn about wars so that each of us can spit out meaningless numbers such as the date of the war, what route was taken, and who was fighting. When I studied history in school it was always with the goal of understanding the underlying motivations of the actors in play. I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. I do understand that things got worse in the US after no child left behind passed, which is unfortunate. > The why is more important than the where. Studying the funding sources of the US Revolutionary War was fascinating, to say the least. (Though I'd say that oftentimes the where and the why are closely linked, especially when it comes to natural resources!)
  - foobarian 3y ago
    > I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. Heh. Reminds me of coming to a (highly regarded) prep-high school in Eastern Eu back in the day. All seemed awesome at first glance. History teacher was ancient, which added to his cachet. Then the first oral exam came. We quickly caught on that this guy would ask a topic, and stop the student as soon as they deviated from the previously spoken lecture. After that it was a race to write every word he said verbatim, and regurgitate on command exactly word for word. I think the biggest contribution this school had for me is I now don’t feel anxious about the American schools my kids attend which many people complain are falling behind other countries, catering to the least common denominator, and similar. Compared to the rote fest I had I’ll take American schools any day :-)
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    > I don't think I ever had to write down the date a battle happened. Maybe not, but if you didn’t know when the battles happened you’d have a very difficult time identifying how they influenced each other.
jimbob45 3y ago
I think you’re onto the solution here: praise hard work first and foremost but also praise cleverness and resourcefulness just as much.
- gopher_space 3y ago
  Celebrating a milestone (birthday, graduating, completing a goal) and celebrating qualities that helped reach that milestone are two different things, in my mind. "Did a good job" is a perfectly adequate milestone to celebrate. Adding qualifiers only introduces the idea of limits, imho. There's no point in setting the bar for someone with unknown potential.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

eternityforest 3y ago

Doing postmortem reviews of mistakes is also important, if you are the type without natural competence. I spent a very long time wondering why I was always lost everywhere I go and always making the same mistakes, before I realized the problem was I was expecting my brain to just suddenly be able to do things after lots of practice, rather than using repeatable, failsafe systems like "Just assume you'll forget everything and always set reminders"

Misdicorl 3y ago

Unconditional love is a trope I want to die so badly. It's so.... Selfish? I read it as "You don't matter at all. I'm so big hearted and perfect; isn't it glorious?" I love my kid and wife because of who they are and specific things they do. And I tell them that. And I also tell them they can always change and my love for them will continue and change with them

smeej 3y ago
If you think it's possible both to love someone and not think they matter at all, I think you're doing love wrong.
- Misdicorl 3y ago
  But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you?
  - layer8 3y ago
    I guess the one condition is that they ate the individual that they are, and not some other individual. So it matters that they are that specific individual (e.g. your child). I find the concept problematic as well. In practice there can certainly be limits.
  - jader201 3y ago
    I don’t think you can both love someone while also thinking they “don’t matter at all”. But maybe your definition of love is different. A parent simply telling their child, unconditionally, that they love them isn’t enough. You have to believe they do matter and are worth something. If you can say that about your child despite their many flaws, and potentially how they might hurt you [1], to me is what unconditional love is more about. [1] That is, humans aren’t perfect, and will on occasion hurt other humans, to some extent — especially children that are still developing and trying to figure out what is and isn’t appropriate.
    - Misdicorl 3y ago

bruce511 3y ago

I think what you say yo kids, and what you say to adults should be different. And like either most of "growing up" the transition from one to the other is hard. We want our kids to "work hard" because we know that to get places they will need to be able to do that. "Working hard" is a skill they need to learn. But as adults, in the real world, "hard work" counts for nothing. The world rewards results, not the hours. Working effectively rewards more than working long. It's hard to explain to an employee that despite the fact they work "harder" than their colleagues, they get paid less because they deliver less. "Hard work" counts for very little. Transitioning from hard work, to effective work, can be confusing for a young adult. That doesn't mean teaching children that hard work doesn't matter. It's precisely because they -can- work hard that it's possible to work smart.

IshKebab 3y ago
> I think what you say to kids, and what you say to adults should be different. I strongly disagree. Do you have children? Kids are smart and surprisingly logical. You don't need to molly coddle them about the value of hard work or even that they have different abilities to each other. You can deliver the news that they aren't as strong as their sister in a nice way just like you can deliver the news that an employee isn't as productive as their coworker in a nice way (and obviously avoid delivering it at all if possible in both cases). If you want good parenting advice just watch Bluey. Look at how they talk to their children.

bmitc 3y ago

I'd be pretty annoyed, as a child or not, if at every turn I'd be asked to retrospect about an accomplishment or even a failure. Praising children for hard work rather than "for just being smart" is about their own personal wellbeing. Kids who get called smart in their early years have trouble facing real and difficult problems later in life, because they suddenly feel "wait, I'm not really smart" and other such pathological feelings. It's about encouraging problem solving, not just blindly working hard, and teaching that problem solving is a continually evolving process and not some innate thing that you either have or don't have. It's true that the real world doesn't recognize hard work in a consistent way, but I think this is more about personal development and wellbeing rather than implying hard work will make you successful, for some definition of successful.

Terr_ 3y ago
> I'd be pretty annoyed, as a child or not, if at every turn I'd be asked to retrospect about an accomplishment or even a failure. Perhaps like: "I wanted you to celebrate/commiserate this emotional thing with me but instead you're always ruining it by trying to make it some kind of school thing--what the fudge, Dad..."
Guthur 3y ago
Or more correctly. Congratulations on the mark. I'm sorry we subjected you to such an inhuman peer ranking activity. Society has become so psychotic that it's impossible for us to understand anything unless we quantify it and this is your initiation.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  Lol, I loved how true this is, damn
taeric 3y ago
I mean, would you? It is literally a defining capability for high level performance. Take a breather, enjoy success, but then look at it. Though, make no mistake, there is a ton of variability in kids. I think I could reasonably do this with one kid, but I couldn't with another. And some kids need pressing, some don't seem to.

MaxfordAndSons 3y ago

If your child calling you fat would cause you to revoke your love for them, I hope you're not considering parenthood.

crummy 3y ago
there's an "and" in that sentence, not an or.

corethree 3y ago

How about I just praise them if I genuinely feel they deserve it instead of picking and choosing when to praise in attempt to mold them into something I want them to be.

jewayne 3y ago
You're picking and choosing in either circumstance, and attempting to mold them in either circumstance.
- corethree 3y ago
  No conscious choice. I just let my emotions guide the praising. Let fate mold them.
  - gsinclair 3y ago
    A judicious balance of “what comes naturally” and “what research shows is a good idea” is probably best.
    - corethree 3y ago
      What research. And what is the definition of best? Generally speaking eons of evolution has shaped "what comes naturally" to be the parenting traits most effective at enabling survival of the fittest or some other trait that enables mass propagation of genes. But survival of the fittest is just one possible definition of "best".
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    You think your subconscious is “fate”?
    - corethree 3y ago
      Just an expression. I don't use conscious choice. Subconscious choice is more similar to what we understand as fate.

rusk 3y ago

These are separate things. Coach your kids. Praise them when they put in the work. Don't sour their successes by telling them they could do better. Accept them at their ability.

freeopinion 3y ago

I work with and around a lot of really smart people, including for my job. I have a very intimate relationship with the very smartest of those people. I get to see behind the curtain quite a bit. The top 10% have no idea how hard the top 1% work. Many think the top 1% are coasting because everything is so easy for them. I fall into that trap myself a lot. The truth is that most real results take time consuming work. I once had a conversation with somebody who lost their bid for a networking job to some 18-year old kid who "probably just plays a lot of video games." They never saw the 1000 hours the kid had spent the last two years fighting for better network latency. They didn't know the kid could quote two dozen different RFCs and could give you the strengths and weaknesses of 6 different routing protocols. Which candidate was "smarter"? I have no idea. I know which one had spent more hours preparing for the job. Even if their competition thought they were just playing around all hours of the day and night.

screye 3y ago
That's one of the annoying realities I am slowly having to face. Among highly technical ICs, the people who are paid $500k/year often do tend to work 2x the people who get paid $200k. Sure, these people are also more efficient, more effective and more knowledgeable. But, most of all, they work some insane hours. It's incredible, they are thinking about work when they're eating, sleeping, on vacation...it's like an obsession. I am in one such ~60 hrs/week job right now, and everyone in an IC role that's paid more than me, works more hours than I do. Yeah, my (supposed) compensation went up with this job hop, but in IC roles, hourly rates stay the same. I love my work & my top 1% coworkers. But man, I look at the ones who are 10 years older than me, and that is not the kind of life I want to be living. I know a person who made millions before 25, and this person had never so much as taken a real vacation, watched a random TV show or played a computer game, despite always having the financial capacity to do so. I am not sure if there is dollar value for which I would give up those precious moments from my teens and 20s.
wrp 3y ago
In the psychological research on domain expertise and performance, a common observation is that while greater expertise/performance is generally recognized to be the result of greater effort, people at lower levels vastly underestimate just how much greater effort.

saiya-jin 3y ago

> But work hard on stupid things? No one cares and you'll be overlooked and even hated on at times. You clearly have no experience in multinational corporations, this quality is enough, with a bit of luck (ie don't get fired by chance in some broad firing rounds, your direct manager is not psycho, your whole location is closed etc.) to get quite far. Corps need people who are willing to wade through bureaucracy, cumbersome rules and processes, chase people across globe and tick checklists. Hard work can get all that done, no real brilliance needed. Also there are tons of stupid things that are required by various regulations and laws for example. I mean of course within limits. You are not going to move 10 levels higher to c-suite just by working hard for 2 decades, but having non-trivial career jumps is not unheard of.

doctor_eval 3y ago

A problem with this kind of statement is that it doesn’t take into account that you live with a child pretty much 100% of the time. It’s not like any other personal relationship, especially in the early days. Having a child is intense, and most people without kids simply don’t have the experience to fully appreciate how relentless it is. I write this simply to say that there is plenty of time to praise kids, and plenty of time to coach them. You don’t need to do both, at once, all the time. Ride the highs, survive the lows; the in-between times are there to teach and learn. Edited to add: and have fun

giantg2 3y ago

I agree. Fuck working hard. Working hard leads to being taken advantage of unless you have some leverage and know how to use it.

Condition1952 3y ago

I was convinced by Alfie Kohn’s “Unconditional Parenting” and “Punished by Rewards”. Praise sometimes hides lack of real interest so I give feedback