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The situation today with different travel capabilities for holders of different passports is somewhat like apartheid. Our generation deserves to be described b

The situation today with different travel capabilities for holders of different passports is somewhat like apartheid. Our generation deserves to be described badly by future generations, for the issues we systematically ignore.

resolutebat 3y ago
You are not incorrect, but it's not quite that simple: you can travel just fine with the worst passport in the world, as long as you can smooth things over with lots of money.
- devoutsalsa 3y ago
  And a lot of patience for visa approvals.
  - c2h5oh 3y ago
    Most countries have investor visas or something similar that not only grants you entry but also residency
    - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
      AU$2.5 million will get you and immediate family members in to Australia for 5 years and possibly permanently. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/business-innovation-and-investment-188/investor-stream https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li...
- dathos 3y ago
  I mean it is that simple then, if you are from a different country and not wealthy you have no chance.
rejectfinite 3y ago
Not that simple. "today", what do you mean "today"? Passports have been a thing for a long time.
badpun 3y ago
What do you propose we do? Do you have any ideas in mind? Keep in mind that if the richest countries opened their borders for everyone in the world, at least hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people from the world's poor countries would immediately immigrate there, causing the rich countries to collapse, which would be no good for anyone.
- whoknowsidont 3y ago
  >causing the rich countries to collapse In what way?
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    The same way the countries they are from collapsed. Environments have a carrying capacity.
    - wwtrv 3y ago
      If we're being fair it's not like they were ever in a much better state. The explosion in population was an outcome of improved life conditions (mainly access to food and healthcare).
  - mattashii 3y ago
    Security, food availability, housing, job market, social security, etc. You can't just increase the population of a country and assume everything will continue to work: many parts of the economy have momentum and need time to adapt, and a sudden change may break down existing balances.
    - whoknowsidont 3y ago
      >many parts of the economy have momentum and need time to adapt, and a sudden change may break down existing balances. I don't think there's any formal understanding of such mechanics (or concerns)? Seems like personal conjecture. We're basically past post-scarcity by every conceivable measure, current allocation structures can quickly be adjusted -- we even saw this happen with COVID. We saw it in the U.S. with 9/11.
throw_m239339 3y ago
> The situation today with different travel capabilities for holders of different passports is somewhat like apartheid. This isn't new. You seem to forget about the infamous "boat people", or forget how some Jewish refugees were denied asylum in US or Canada at the dawn of World War II. > Our generation deserves to be described badly by future generations, for the issues we systematically ignore. No, the mafia who put these people on these "rafts" and exploit their dreams, rob them, assault the women and sell some of them into slavery are the ones to blame. The US, UK, French leaders who made a mess in Libya without thinking about the consequences of their action are also to blame. Libya has literally turned into a giant open air black slave market. https://time.com/longform/african-slave-trade/ https://time.com/longform/african-slave-trade/ "our generation" isn't to blame, I didn't vote for western armies to topple Gadhafi, no matter how bad he was, and then try to pull the exact same stunt in Syria, which became infested by terrorists who then perpetrated terrorist attacks on European soil that made hundreds of victims, because western leaders decided to finance "freedom fighters" that turned out to be allied with extremists. Gadhafi was a bloody dictator, yet Libya was one of the richest nation in Africa and provided 10s of millions of jobs to sub Saharan Africans, which helped feed even more people. The western leaders that decided that chaos would be better than order and stability are the one that needs to be "described badly" now and not in the future, not me, not the common folk that didn't agree with all this.
- pharmakom 3y ago
  Passports were originally to help merchants cross war zones safely.
  - arrowsmith 3y ago
    That's why British passports still say on the inside cover that they're issued in the name of the King. In other words: "don't fuck with me, I have powerful friends."
- zirgs 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Coun... The UN Security Council voted to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya. Not a single member state voted against it. And nobody vetoed it. So saying that the West decided to topple Gaddafi is a lie.
bluescrn 3y ago
The future involves far less (legal) travel, not more, as the working class even in the richest countries lose access to cars and air travel. You will stay in your assigned district of your '15 minute city', and if you complain, your social credit score will take a hit.
- rajamaka 3y ago
  This reads like erotic fan fiction for tinfoilers
- HL33tibCe7 3y ago
  The “15 minute city” thing is not some conspiracy to try and lock people away. Only an idiot, or someone deliberately missing the point, would come away with such an impression. We already have plenty of 15 minute cities in the world, and living in them is great.
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    It might not be about locking people up, but it's about removing transport options while providing nothing in return. Living within a 15min walk of a decent job is always likely to remain a luxury. The best chance we had to seriously reduce commuting was Covid and WFH, but that didn't last long for many people/companies.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > The future involves far less (legal) travel, not more, as the working class even in the richest countries lose access to cars and air travel. Yet all recent trends have been going in the exactly opposite direction. Air travel has never been more accessible throughout much of the developed world.
rmellow 3y ago
Our generation needs to go down in history for guilt tripping itself and other generations over every issue in the world. e.g. "Boomers ruined our economy and our environment". When is the last time you actually had power to make material change in the world? Even if you did, most people are just trying to survive - don't blame a generation, that's misdirection. Instead, hold specific people in power accountable. There are individuals whose names we know that are running most of this the world and know very well what they are doing. Don't relieve them of their agency.
- xracy 3y ago
  There are interests that different generations tend to vote for, that have led to noticeable quality of life changes for future demographics. Politicians have an outsized share of the blame, but they do respond to the people who actually show up and call them on issues. You have more power than you might otherwise realize (at least in the US I know this is true). Not saying it's a ton of the generational blame, but if you have wealth, you have power and you can sway things. And if you would advocate for the right stuff, then I don't consider you part of the generational problem. It's just a pretty accurate numbers game that most of the boomers I see aren't helping out with a lot of the decisions that were made 30 years ago that proved to be bad... Edit: Even the boomers I know who are trying their best acknowledge that their generation made some mistakes (my generation will make mistakes too). Getting defensive about it misses the point.
KeplerBoy 3y ago
Do you really think future generations will handle this any less restrictive? I don't think so, especially not with ever accelerating climate-change forcing people to move to richer more, developed areas.
- acadapter 3y ago
  An increasing amount of people have relatives on the other side of the Western high-status bubble, and this might affect political attitudes against hard borders
- ben_w 3y ago
  Could easily go either way. Even in a one-world-government scenario, there are countries with restrictions on internal migration. The usual arguments about migration are "crime, language, culture, jobs". Crime: AI can already give us trivial cost total surveillance that would make the literal Stasi feel you'd gone too far Language: AI translation is pretty good, just not real time and speech recognition is still kinda meh Culture: internet is a giant melting-pot even without migration, and also there's cultural assortive behaviour even within borders over things like "democrat or republican"* or "Red Sox vs… Yankees"** or "Catholic vs. Baptist" Jobs: offshoring, remote work, and automation are all bigger issues… or should be, at least from an economic POV when the dichotomy (to use an American perspective for illustration but there's also an equivalent one in Mexico) is "Mexicans move to San Diego and take American jobs" vs. "The factory moves from San Diego to Tijuana and Americans are no longer allowed to work there", and the fact this counterpoint never comes up is really just evidence that it's not actually about the economics. * both big and small R/D, in different contexts; I was born in a kingdom not a republic. ** I had to google that, I'm not into sports.
carlosjobim 3y ago
You are of course fully free to pay any travel for your fellow human being, or help then in any other way, if you think that's the case.

resolutebat 3y ago

You are not incorrect, but it's not quite that simple: you can travel just fine with the worst passport in the world, as long as you can smooth things over with lots of money.

devoutsalsa 3y ago
And a lot of patience for visa approvals.
- c2h5oh 3y ago
  Most countries have investor visas or something similar that not only grants you entry but also residency
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    AU$2.5 million will get you and immediate family members in to Australia for 5 years and possibly permanently. https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing/business-innovation-and-investment-188/investor-stream https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li...
dathos 3y ago
I mean it is that simple then, if you are from a different country and not wealthy you have no chance.

rejectfinite 3y ago

Not that simple. "today", what do you mean "today"? Passports have been a thing for a long time.

badpun 3y ago

What do you propose we do? Do you have any ideas in mind? Keep in mind that if the richest countries opened their borders for everyone in the world, at least hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people from the world's poor countries would immediately immigrate there, causing the rich countries to collapse, which would be no good for anyone.

whoknowsidont 3y ago
>causing the rich countries to collapse In what way?
- refulgentis 3y ago
  The same way the countries they are from collapsed. Environments have a carrying capacity.
  - wwtrv 3y ago
    If we're being fair it's not like they were ever in a much better state. The explosion in population was an outcome of improved life conditions (mainly access to food and healthcare).
- mattashii 3y ago
  Security, food availability, housing, job market, social security, etc. You can't just increase the population of a country and assume everything will continue to work: many parts of the economy have momentum and need time to adapt, and a sudden change may break down existing balances.
  - whoknowsidont 3y ago
    >many parts of the economy have momentum and need time to adapt, and a sudden change may break down existing balances. I don't think there's any formal understanding of such mechanics (or concerns)? Seems like personal conjecture. We're basically past post-scarcity by every conceivable measure, current allocation structures can quickly be adjusted -- we even saw this happen with COVID. We saw it in the U.S. with 9/11.

throw_m239339 3y ago

> The situation today with different travel capabilities for holders of different passports is somewhat like apartheid. This isn't new. You seem to forget about the infamous "boat people", or forget how some Jewish refugees were denied asylum in US or Canada at the dawn of World War II. > Our generation deserves to be described badly by future generations, for the issues we systematically ignore. No, the mafia who put these people on these "rafts" and exploit their dreams, rob them, assault the women and sell some of them into slavery are the ones to blame. The US, UK, French leaders who made a mess in Libya without thinking about the consequences of their action are also to blame. Libya has literally turned into a giant open air black slave market. https://time.com/longform/african-slave-trade/ https://time.com/longform/african-slave-trade/ "our generation" isn't to blame, I didn't vote for western armies to topple Gadhafi, no matter how bad he was, and then try to pull the exact same stunt in Syria, which became infested by terrorists who then perpetrated terrorist attacks on European soil that made hundreds of victims, because western leaders decided to finance "freedom fighters" that turned out to be allied with extremists. Gadhafi was a bloody dictator, yet Libya was one of the richest nation in Africa and provided 10s of millions of jobs to sub Saharan Africans, which helped feed even more people. The western leaders that decided that chaos would be better than order and stability are the one that needs to be "described badly" now and not in the future, not me, not the common folk that didn't agree with all this.

pharmakom 3y ago
Passports were originally to help merchants cross war zones safely.
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  That's why British passports still say on the inside cover that they're issued in the name of the King. In other words: "don't fuck with me, I have powerful friends."
zirgs 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Coun... The UN Security Council voted to enforce a no-fly zone over Libya. Not a single member state voted against it. And nobody vetoed it. So saying that the West decided to topple Gaddafi is a lie.

bluescrn 3y ago

The future involves far less (legal) travel, not more, as the working class even in the richest countries lose access to cars and air travel. You will stay in your assigned district of your '15 minute city', and if you complain, your social credit score will take a hit.

rajamaka 3y ago
This reads like erotic fan fiction for tinfoilers
HL33tibCe7 3y ago
The “15 minute city” thing is not some conspiracy to try and lock people away. Only an idiot, or someone deliberately missing the point, would come away with such an impression. We already have plenty of 15 minute cities in the world, and living in them is great.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  It might not be about locking people up, but it's about removing transport options while providing nothing in return. Living within a 15min walk of a decent job is always likely to remain a luxury. The best chance we had to seriously reduce commuting was Covid and WFH, but that didn't last long for many people/companies.
qwytw 3y ago
> The future involves far less (legal) travel, not more, as the working class even in the richest countries lose access to cars and air travel. Yet all recent trends have been going in the exactly opposite direction. Air travel has never been more accessible throughout much of the developed world.

rmellow 3y ago

Our generation needs to go down in history for guilt tripping itself and other generations over every issue in the world. e.g. "Boomers ruined our economy and our environment". When is the last time you actually had power to make material change in the world? Even if you did, most people are just trying to survive - don't blame a generation, that's misdirection. Instead, hold specific people in power accountable. There are individuals whose names we know that are running most of this the world and know very well what they are doing. Don't relieve them of their agency.

xracy 3y ago
There are interests that different generations tend to vote for, that have led to noticeable quality of life changes for future demographics. Politicians have an outsized share of the blame, but they do respond to the people who actually show up and call them on issues. You have more power than you might otherwise realize (at least in the US I know this is true). Not saying it's a ton of the generational blame, but if you have wealth, you have power and you can sway things. And if you would advocate for the right stuff, then I don't consider you part of the generational problem. It's just a pretty accurate numbers game that most of the boomers I see aren't helping out with a lot of the decisions that were made 30 years ago that proved to be bad... Edit: Even the boomers I know who are trying their best acknowledge that their generation made some mistakes (my generation will make mistakes too). Getting defensive about it misses the point.

KeplerBoy 3y ago

Do you really think future generations will handle this any less restrictive? I don't think so, especially not with ever accelerating climate-change forcing people to move to richer more, developed areas.

acadapter 3y ago
An increasing amount of people have relatives on the other side of the Western high-status bubble, and this might affect political attitudes against hard borders
ben_w 3y ago
Could easily go either way. Even in a one-world-government scenario, there are countries with restrictions on internal migration. The usual arguments about migration are "crime, language, culture, jobs". Crime: AI can already give us trivial cost total surveillance that would make the literal Stasi feel you'd gone too far Language: AI translation is pretty good, just not real time and speech recognition is still kinda meh Culture: internet is a giant melting-pot even without migration, and also there's cultural assortive behaviour even within borders over things like "democrat or republican"* or "Red Sox vs… Yankees"** or "Catholic vs. Baptist" Jobs: offshoring, remote work, and automation are all bigger issues… or should be, at least from an economic POV when the dichotomy (to use an American perspective for illustration but there's also an equivalent one in Mexico) is "Mexicans move to San Diego and take American jobs" vs. "The factory moves from San Diego to Tijuana and Americans are no longer allowed to work there", and the fact this counterpoint never comes up is really just evidence that it's not actually about the economics. * both big and small R/D, in different contexts; I was born in a kingdom not a republic. ** I had to google that, I'm not into sports.

carlosjobim 3y ago

You are of course fully free to pay any travel for your fellow human being, or help then in any other way, if you think that's the case.