4 ms·

After Snowden, I realized there are two types of security: the one that protect your from high-profile black hats, and the one that protects you from government

by jokoon 3y ago

After Snowden, I realized there are two types of security: the one that protect your from high-profile black hats, and the one that protects you from governments. I just want to be protected from criminals and other black hats that only do harm. It's pointless to be protected from the government, because I want real criminals to get caught. The chilling effect is real, but I still don't want criminals to hack me, and so far it seems things are okay, and online ads are more worrying than the NSA. What's worrying with this NSA story, is how politics can influence with justice, when agencies use their powers for political gain but it doesn't seem the NSA is really using it on the US political scene. However, the US abuse its power on the international scene, so it spies on its allies or even work with large US corporation to loot other countries. That's a real problem. At the end of the day, lay people will just argue that what the NSA does is to preserve American dominance, so it must be good. So in the end, the NSA and digital surveillance is never the problem, the problem has not changed, the problem is how the US behaves on the planet. But ask yourself this question: do you trust your government? I'm not american, the US scares me, and I trust the US government. Even Trump could not do all the damage he wanted. So in the end, the Snowden story only resonates with libertarians who fears that the US government will turn into a fascist soviet empire. It's not cyber surveillance that will do it. They should learn more about politics and history. Technology isn't everything.

dijit 3y ago
It might interest you to keep in mind that you should care about a branch of government breaking its countries own laws and acting intentionally against the will of the senate, even openly and directly misleading them. Such a thing is akin to a rogue government entity, it’s the stuff of Mission Impossible movies; though much more mundane and sleazy as people were shown to be stalking ex-lovers using the tech. I won’t jibe with comments about how totalitarian regimes come about, though that’s certainly an issue- I would invite you to read the thought experiment of Roko’s Basilisk though, you should be warned that some people consider the awareness of this thought experiment to be akin to a virus[0]. Essentially, you don’t just trust this government and all it’s employees implicitly, you are basically trusting all future governments and government employees, and you are trusting them to only break the laws that suit you. I’m not sure what laws you think they should be beholden to in that case. Law is not optional, it works or it should be changed, via the democratic process. [0]: https://youtu.be/ut-zGHLAVLI https://youtu.be/ut-zGHLAVLI
- jokoon 3y ago
  I do care, but it's not really related to digital surveillance, it's related to how government works. All government entities can go rogue, there's nothing new about this. The snowden story was good as it made people be aware about cyber surveillance, but there's not much else.
adolph 3y ago
> It's pointless to be protected from the government, because I want real criminals to get caught. 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 Ham Sandwich Nation: Due Process When Everything is a Crime https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2203713 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2203713
darkhorn 3y ago
Some governments are run by criminals.
- placesalt 3y ago
  More to the point, any government could be run by criminals in the future.
stephen_g 3y ago
The problem is that they store all this data. Can you trust all future Governments of the US and their allies, for the whole rest of your life? This is not a hypothetical - it’s actually been a serious problem for groups of people. For example, census data voluntarily filed by citizens to probably then trustworthy Governments was used by a later regime that invaded to identify which people to exterminate in the holocaust. Then there is the problem of leaks. Sure you might trust the Government with that data, but what it it’s hacked by a criminal organisation, or other governments etc.?
julianeon 3y ago
I'd like to point out two things that are relevant: 1. There is a Presidential candidate who has absolutely, positively stated that if elected President, he will use government power to go after his political enemies. Like 100%. No ambiguity on this, he is campaigning on it. 2. This candidate has been estimated at having at 45-49% chance of being elected the next President (since that is his chance of winning the electoral college) according to a recently quoted US political expert. As the expression goes, life comes at you fast. It really wouldn't take that much for being protected from government to be even more important than it currently is. So if today you'd say 'I'm not worried about the government scanning my data', please note that the negative power of government interest, and prosecution of perceived enemies, could escalate exponentially very quickly. This isn't a hypothetical: we have a candidate that has said he's going to pursue his political enemies, and there's good reason to think that nothing will be off limits.

by jokoon 3y ago

dijit 3y ago

It might interest you to keep in mind that you should care about a branch of government breaking its countries own laws and acting intentionally against the will of the senate, even openly and directly misleading them. Such a thing is akin to a rogue government entity, it’s the stuff of Mission Impossible movies; though much more mundane and sleazy as people were shown to be stalking ex-lovers using the tech. I won’t jibe with comments about how totalitarian regimes come about, though that’s certainly an issue- I would invite you to read the thought experiment of Roko’s Basilisk though, you should be warned that some people consider the awareness of this thought experiment to be akin to a virus[0]. Essentially, you don’t just trust this government and all it’s employees implicitly, you are basically trusting all future governments and government employees, and you are trusting them to only break the laws that suit you. I’m not sure what laws you think they should be beholden to in that case. Law is not optional, it works or it should be changed, via the democratic process. [0]: https://youtu.be/ut-zGHLAVLI https://youtu.be/ut-zGHLAVLI

jokoon 3y ago
I do care, but it's not really related to digital surveillance, it's related to how government works. All government entities can go rogue, there's nothing new about this. The snowden story was good as it made people be aware about cyber surveillance, but there's not much else.

adolph 3y ago

> It's pointless to be protected from the government, because I want real criminals to get caught. 'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565 Ham Sandwich Nation: Due Process When Everything is a Crime https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2203713 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2203713

darkhorn 3y ago

Some governments are run by criminals.

placesalt 3y ago
More to the point, any government could be run by criminals in the future.

stephen_g 3y ago

The problem is that they store all this data. Can you trust all future Governments of the US and their allies, for the whole rest of your life? This is not a hypothetical - it’s actually been a serious problem for groups of people. For example, census data voluntarily filed by citizens to probably then trustworthy Governments was used by a later regime that invaded to identify which people to exterminate in the holocaust. Then there is the problem of leaks. Sure you might trust the Government with that data, but what it it’s hacked by a criminal organisation, or other governments etc.?

julianeon 3y ago

I'd like to point out two things that are relevant: 1. There is a Presidential candidate who has absolutely, positively stated that if elected President, he will use government power to go after his political enemies. Like 100%. No ambiguity on this, he is campaigning on it. 2. This candidate has been estimated at having at 45-49% chance of being elected the next President (since that is his chance of winning the electoral college) according to a recently quoted US political expert. As the expression goes, life comes at you fast. It really wouldn't take that much for being protected from government to be even more important than it currently is. So if today you'd say 'I'm not worried about the government scanning my data', please note that the negative power of government interest, and prosecution of perceived enemies, could escalate exponentially very quickly. This isn't a hypothetical: we have a candidate that has said he's going to pursue his political enemies, and there's good reason to think that nothing will be off limits.