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Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing

Let's flip it and see how different they are. China sanctions France. Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran?

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly. This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if they weren't operating in China.
- woooooo 3y ago
  But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of? She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there. It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China. Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something made in China to another country that China was sanctioning. Yes, they would go to jail, there wouldn't even be an outcry over it. There are other things the Chinese could get them on, so not even this pretext is needed, but you better believe they would do it. Now, let's say some Swedish citizen is accused of violating Chinese law but is not in China, rather they happen to be in Thailand. Yes, the Chinese are still going after that person as well, but no, the Thai government isn't involved. They just go and kidnap the guy. Ok, so now we get to Canada, who has an extradition agreement with the USA. The USA puts in a request for her extradition because they accuse her of violating American law. There is a valid accusation, though it is questionable if she would have been convicted. Canada says: ok, we have to evaluate if this order is correct, so they arrest Huawei daughter, and then it goes to the courts. China tit for tat grabs some random Canadians off the street, throws them in jail for a couple of years (Huawei daughter is in jail for a couple of weeks then at home under house arrest for the rest of the time, but that's canada for you). Eventually, Canadian courts decide on their own that America's request isn't valid and they decide not to extradite Huawei daughter to the USA (the Canadians arrested in China wouldn't have mattered, because the courts are independent and they can't make "deals" with other countries). China is really just rule by law: they don't like you, you are going to jail. The USA, and Canada, have laws, independent courts that aren't subject to whims of prime minsters or presidents, etc...they even have bail where you can spend 2 years in your Vancouver mansion rather than a Chinese prison while your case works its way through the system. They are not comparable.
    - woooooo 3y ago
      To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The arrest by Canada (not the USA) was justified on Canada's part because of their extradition treaty with us and the USA had a warrant for her arrest. Due process in Canada decided that the Americans didn't have a case for extradition, which was also their right. One can argue that America should have seen the flaws in the extradition case that Canadian due process did, but the case never went to trial in the USA so we will never know if due process in the USA would have come to a similar conclusion as well.
        woooooo 3y ago
        I'm sure the Chinese have a bunch of legalese bullshit for why they locked up those innocent Canadians, but we can look through it and see the real score. Right?
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The courts aren’t independent from the party/official branch (china technically has one branch of government, the judicial and legislative branches just rubber stamp whatever the official branch wants), so you can’t really trust them one way or the other. There is no nice Mexican stand off balance of power that you’d get from a checks and balances government design.
      - richbell 3y ago
        > Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country Russia has government-sanctioned hacking groups who operate outside of the US. If a member of one of those groups, known to law enforcement, traveled to the USA or Canada do you feel it would be unjust to arrest them? This is a flimsy argument for why the Huawei CFO being detained was unjust, IMO.
  - canucker2016 3y ago
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/huawei-cfo-wanzhou-meng-admits-misleading-global-financial-institution https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/huawei-cfo-wanzhou-meng-admit... “Her admissions in the statement of facts confirm that, while acting as the Chief Financial Officer for Huawei, Meng made multiple material misrepresentations to a senior executive of a financial institution regarding Huawei’s business operations in Iran in an effort to preserve Huawei’s banking relationship with the financial institution. The truth about Huawei’s business in Iran, which Meng concealed, would have been important to the financial institution’s decision to continue its banking relationship with Huawei. Meng’s admissions confirm the crux of the government’s allegations in the prosecution of this financial fraud — that Meng and her fellow Huawei employees engaged in a concerted effort to deceive global financial institutions, the U.S. government and the public about Huawei’s activities in Iran.”
richbell 3y ago
> Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen She was a C-suite executive of Huawei, not some random employee. > Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran? If an American company intentionally evaded sanctions and did something they knew China wouldn't like, and then a C-suite executive of that company traveled to China or an affiliated country and was detained, that would be entirely their fault. I don't think you're making the point that you think you are.
- woooooo 3y ago
  I'm surprised! I thought you would be much more sympathetic to the American. Everyone's so outraged at arbitrary detainment of westerners. I would apparently be more upset than you about it.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

If China said: all businesses in China must not do business in France, and then some business person working in China for an American company decided the company would send Chinese components to France anyways, they would be thrown in jail fairly quickly. This is actually a pretty common restriction for companies operating in China. There are lots of rules they have to follow, that they wouldn't need to follow if they weren't operating in China.

woooooo 3y ago
But someone who's just passing through, the founder's daughter btw, and Huawei has no manufacturing in Canada that I'm aware of? She wasn't shipping stuff out of Canada to Iran, the problem is that Huawei generally does business there. It's a "rule by law" situation if they're grabbing her for things her company does outside of US/Canadian borders.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Huawei decided to import HP components from the USA and re-export them to Iran to get around US sanctions. Huawei also has a presence in the USA, but in general the USA subjects any company re-exporting American stuff to sanctioned countries as breaking American law, and actually so does China. Now...let's say some American executive happened to be in China and China accused this company of re-exporting something made in China to another country that China was sanctioning. Yes, they would go to jail, there wouldn't even be an outcry over it. There are other things the Chinese could get them on, so not even this pretext is needed, but you better believe they would do it. Now, let's say some Swedish citizen is accused of violating Chinese law but is not in China, rather they happen to be in Thailand. Yes, the Chinese are still going after that person as well, but no, the Thai government isn't involved. They just go and kidnap the guy. Ok, so now we get to Canada, who has an extradition agreement with the USA. The USA puts in a request for her extradition because they accuse her of violating American law. There is a valid accusation, though it is questionable if she would have been convicted. Canada says: ok, we have to evaluate if this order is correct, so they arrest Huawei daughter, and then it goes to the courts. China tit for tat grabs some random Canadians off the street, throws them in jail for a couple of years (Huawei daughter is in jail for a couple of weeks then at home under house arrest for the rest of the time, but that's canada for you). Eventually, Canadian courts decide on their own that America's request isn't valid and they decide not to extradite Huawei daughter to the USA (the Canadians arrested in China wouldn't have mattered, because the courts are independent and they can't make "deals" with other countries). China is really just rule by law: they don't like you, you are going to jail. The USA, and Canada, have laws, independent courts that aren't subject to whims of prime minsters or presidents, etc...they even have bail where you can spend 2 years in your Vancouver mansion rather than a Chinese prison while your case works its way through the system. They are not comparable.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    To be clear, I'm not comparing China and the US broadly. I'm saying with the Huawei exec, we started it and we were over the line. Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country, just because we had the opportunity to grab her. Almost any other topic they are worse than us on legal fairness issues.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      The arrest by Canada (not the USA) was justified on Canada's part because of their extradition treaty with us and the USA had a warrant for her arrest. Due process in Canada decided that the Americans didn't have a case for extradition, which was also their right. One can argue that America should have seen the flaws in the extradition case that Canadian due process did, but the case never went to trial in the USA so we will never know if due process in the USA would have come to a similar conclusion as well.
      - woooooo 3y ago
        I'm sure the Chinese have a bunch of legalese bullshit for why they locked up those innocent Canadians, but we can look through it and see the real score. Right?
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The courts aren’t independent from the party/official branch (china technically has one branch of government, the judicial and legislative branches just rubber stamp whatever the official branch wants), so you can’t really trust them one way or the other. There is no nice Mexican stand off balance of power that you’d get from a checks and balances government design.
    - richbell 3y ago
      > Arresting a foreign national for activities not on our soil which are not illegal in their home country Russia has government-sanctioned hacking groups who operate outside of the US. If a member of one of those groups, known to law enforcement, traveled to the USA or Canada do you feel it would be unjust to arrest them? This is a flimsy argument for why the Huawei CFO being detained was unjust, IMO.
- canucker2016 3y ago
  https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/huawei-cfo-wanzhou-meng-admits-misleading-global-financial-institution https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/huawei-cfo-wanzhou-meng-admit... “Her admissions in the statement of facts confirm that, while acting as the Chief Financial Officer for Huawei, Meng made multiple material misrepresentations to a senior executive of a financial institution regarding Huawei’s business operations in Iran in an effort to preserve Huawei’s banking relationship with the financial institution. The truth about Huawei’s business in Iran, which Meng concealed, would have been important to the financial institution’s decision to continue its banking relationship with Huawei. Meng’s admissions confirm the crux of the government’s allegations in the prosecution of this financial fraud — that Meng and her fellow Huawei employees engaged in a concerted effort to deceive global financial institutions, the U.S. government and the public about Huawei’s activities in Iran.”

richbell 3y ago

> Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen She was a C-suite executive of Huawei, not some random employee. > Would you be supporting their right to detain arbitrary American businessmen for doing business with France? The same exact way you're supporting our detention of their nationals over Iran? If an American company intentionally evaded sanctions and did something they knew China wouldn't like, and then a C-suite executive of that company traveled to China or an affiliated country and was detained, that would be entirely their fault. I don't think you're making the point that you think you are.

woooooo 3y ago
I'm surprised! I thought you would be much more sympathetic to the American. Everyone's so outraged at arbitrary detainment of westerners. I would apparently be more upset than you about it.