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And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else

And miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual. This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. It is probably not something that people faring from the western world and traveling over that western world (so no visas, no suspicion, excellent consulate support) are used to, but this is kinda how the rest of the world lives, even when traveling to western countries. It's kind of ironic how the article also ropes in Russia, given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US (sometimes not even necessarily on the US soil) - over a hundred people currently detained. When normalized by population (roughly 150 mil in Russia, and 300 mil in the US), this is pretty much similar to the number of American citizens detained in China (over 2 hundred people). So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either. EDIT: added some rough stats

nyokodo 3y ago
> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. To an extent, yes. However, context is key as the fairness and/or arbitrariness of those laws and how they are enforced vary wildly between countries. Merely avoiding breaking the law is a lot more difficult in an outright fascist dictatorship surveillance state like China than even the most surveillance happy western nations. So, while you should follow the law in all countries you visit (or at least know what you’re risking), some countries make that more like a tap dance across a minefield.
- foverzar 3y ago
  The matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist. Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and don't bother researching how to be a proper guest. For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US recommend thoroughly researching the rules and protocol of interacting with the police, including properly managing your body language and being VERY conscious about not making unconscious moves you might be used to (moving your hands, reaching for pockets or gloves compartment) - all that just so that you don't get accidentally shot and killed (completely legally!) Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns?
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? it's closer to the first one: fascist police that's unfortunately absolutely something all people in the US have to worry about the threat of them organizing and doing so as a result of you displeasing the government, however, is far more remote in the US than in China in essence, China presents just another, higher and more abstracted level of unchecked arbitrary exercise of power, and thus you logically must concern yourself with those higher level threats as well as the lower level ones
  - southernplaces7 3y ago
    >Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? Unequivocally yes, it absolutely is a fascist police state by any definition of the notion, even when compared to other notoriously authoritarian states. Sure, many countries have their flaws and legal quirks, but to claim legal ambiguity about the status of China despite absolute mountains of evidence to the contrary on all kinds of scales is either a case of utter ignorance or flagrant dishonesty. China is the 21st century's closest example of a pre-genocide Nazi-type state in the sense of it being an economically successful major power with plenty of international influence while blatantly repressing millions of people based on their ethnicity or religious affiliation, while also obliging the rest of its population into a constant state of Gleichschaltung, or roughly, "coordination" as the Nazis called their version of it.
    - nyokodo 3y ago
      > a pre-genocide Nazi-type state The CCP treatment of the Uighur is unequivocally a genocide. They are not pre-genocide anything.
    - foverzar 3y ago
      > Nazi-type > Nazi It gets harder and harder to take this kind of rhetorics seriously these days, especially the last few years - everyone labels everyone else they don't like as "nazis". This is borderline Nazi apologizm. They recycled people into furniture, butchered millions based on genetics alone. I honestly couldn't care less for that westsplaining about China at this point (or any other culture European civilization considers foreign), especially after seeing how does the receiving end of some darker western politics looks like. Honestly, that xenophobic supremacism is so tiresome. Being an outside observer I hardly see white European descendants doing too much better. What I do see is extreme circejeeking, projections and boring 2 minutes hate at every other corner, while having disappointingly little substance to show for, when you visit and check out their way of living personally.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. Russians also get arrested in China, it usually involves some alcohol at some nightclub and maybe concerns girls. The Chocolate Bar behind Ritan park in Beijing's Russian district was a pretty intense place. > So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either. In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment. Even if they aren't perfect, you have a much better chance of being treated fairly in a rule of law country (China explicitly rejects rule of law as a governing principle, which is why their constitution can guarantee freedom of speech, the press, and religion, without it coming off as inconsistent).
- foverzar 3y ago
  > I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. It's often spying accusations for individuals or sanctions related for businesspeople, so... > Russians also get arrested in China Of course. Everyone gets arrested everywhere from time to time. My point that China isn't in any way unique in this matter. > In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment. Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road. On the other hand, as a traveller, every new country is a good country. In principle though, see my comment in the neighboring thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37071541 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37071541
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    People get arrested for lots of things, sometimes it is taking pictures that they shouldn't take, but had no idea that they couldn't take those pictures. In China, you can get arrested for taking pictures of pretty much anywhere, subject to whims of course (they can't put all tourists in prison or they would have no tourist industry). In America, you can take pictures of anything you want as long as you are allowed to be there. Some Chinese guy could (and often do!) take a picture of an Aircraft Carrier in port in San Diego and not go to jail for spying, while some American guy doing the same thing in Qingdao is in huge trouble if the police decide to bother. This is in a perfectly touristy place, where you could just be taking pictures of scenery or something. The only issue is when you gain access to somewhere you aren't supposed to be (say a military base) and start taking pictures; e.g. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/three-chinese-nationals-sentenced-prison-illegal-photography-us-naval-installation-key https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/three-chinese-nationals.... In that case, the judge is going to take into account if they knew they were in an naval air station or not (rather than strolling along the road in San Diego). > Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road. At least go to countries where the laws aren't considered state secrets. Because if what they can get you for is a secret, you are screwed (but in general, you are screwed anyways, because laws in those countries are just tools anyways). And yes, don't be an evil jerk and 99.9% of the time nothing is happening to you, but in the USA you usually just need a good lawyer while in China you are at the mercy of whether the local party official wants to make an example of you or not. Anyways, if you are afraid of rule of law, don't go to Singapore. They will fine you a few thousand dollars for making that wrong turn, or stopping at the wrong time...etc...the exact opposite of China actually.
MerelyMortal 3y ago
> allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual. 'Pay my extortion fee, or I'll tell the government that you owe me money or we have a dispute, then you will miss your flight and you'll have to buy new, more expensive plane tickets.'
- foverzar 3y ago
  This kind of scam can be pulled off in any country.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    No it can't.
    - foverzar 3y ago
      Yes it can, but whatever, I know I can't force insight on desperate naivite
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        No it can't, but whatever, I know you'll never put forth a convincing argument to substantiate your ridiculous claim
Guvante 3y ago
Did any of those people owe money to an American company or were they all detained for criminal offenses? The fact that sometimes you can't leave isn't the story. The fact that a citizen business can report theft and block your right to go home is.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. and yet, when another country does it, China retaliates by arresting arbitrary foreign national civilians and holding them for ransom [0] [0]: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-canada-china-arrests-washington-2b6e0977ae93557ad1265869d57838ed https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-canada-china-arrests-...
NicoJuicy 3y ago
Russians use diplomacy passports for their spies. It's not ironic that they are being checked extra while they are threatening with nuclear war every week :)
- foverzar 3y ago
  Who said anything about green passports? > It's not ironic In the context of the narrative the OP article pushes - it is. But this is arguing perspective, which is pointless in the culture this forum is centric to.
- cafard 3y ago
  All countries that can afford spies use diplomatic passports for some of them.
  - NicoJuicy 3y ago
    Based on what? Russia is absolutely a record holder of abuse of diplomatic passports

nyokodo 3y ago

> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. To an extent, yes. However, context is key as the fairness and/or arbitrariness of those laws and how they are enforced vary wildly between countries. Merely avoiding breaking the law is a lot more difficult in an outright fascist dictatorship surveillance state like China than even the most surveillance happy western nations. So, while you should follow the law in all countries you visit (or at least know what you’re risking), some countries make that more like a tap dance across a minefield.

foverzar 3y ago
The matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist. Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and don't bother researching how to be a proper guest. For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US recommend thoroughly researching the rules and protocol of interacting with the police, including properly managing your body language and being VERY conscious about not making unconscious moves you might be used to (moving your hands, reaching for pockets or gloves compartment) - all that just so that you don't get accidentally shot and killed (completely legally!) Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns?
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  > Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? it's closer to the first one: fascist police that's unfortunately absolutely something all people in the US have to worry about the threat of them organizing and doing so as a result of you displeasing the government, however, is far more remote in the US than in China in essence, China presents just another, higher and more abstracted level of unchecked arbitrary exercise of power, and thus you logically must concern yourself with those higher level threats as well as the lower level ones
- southernplaces7 3y ago
  >Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? Unequivocally yes, it absolutely is a fascist police state by any definition of the notion, even when compared to other notoriously authoritarian states. Sure, many countries have their flaws and legal quirks, but to claim legal ambiguity about the status of China despite absolute mountains of evidence to the contrary on all kinds of scales is either a case of utter ignorance or flagrant dishonesty. China is the 21st century's closest example of a pre-genocide Nazi-type state in the sense of it being an economically successful major power with plenty of international influence while blatantly repressing millions of people based on their ethnicity or religious affiliation, while also obliging the rest of its population into a constant state of Gleichschaltung, or roughly, "coordination" as the Nazis called their version of it.
  - nyokodo 3y ago
    > a pre-genocide Nazi-type state The CCP treatment of the Uighur is unequivocally a genocide. They are not pre-genocide anything.
  - foverzar 3y ago
    > Nazi-type > Nazi It gets harder and harder to take this kind of rhetorics seriously these days, especially the last few years - everyone labels everyone else they don't like as "nazis". This is borderline Nazi apologizm. They recycled people into furniture, butchered millions based on genetics alone. I honestly couldn't care less for that westsplaining about China at this point (or any other culture European civilization considers foreign), especially after seeing how does the receiving end of some darker western politics looks like. Honestly, that xenophobic supremacism is so tiresome. Being an outside observer I hardly see white European descendants doing too much better. What I do see is extreme circejeeking, projections and boring 2 minutes hate at every other corner, while having disappointingly little substance to show for, when you visit and check out their way of living personally.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. Russians also get arrested in China, it usually involves some alcohol at some nightclub and maybe concerns girls. The Chocolate Bar behind Ritan park in Beijing's Russian district was a pretty intense place. > So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either. In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment. Even if they aren't perfect, you have a much better chance of being treated fairly in a rule of law country (China explicitly rejects rule of law as a governing principle, which is why their constitution can guarantee freedom of speech, the press, and religion, without it coming off as inconsistent).

foverzar 3y ago
> I'm fairly sure why Russians are arrested in the USA is fairly unrelated to them being Russian. It's often spying accusations for individuals or sanctions related for businesspeople, so... > Russians also get arrested in China Of course. Everyone gets arrested everywhere from time to time. My point that China isn't in any way unique in this matter. > In general, prefer rule of law countries and avoid rule by law countries if you are worried about fair treatment. Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road. On the other hand, as a traveller, every new country is a good country. In principle though, see my comment in the neighboring thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37071541 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37071541
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  People get arrested for lots of things, sometimes it is taking pictures that they shouldn't take, but had no idea that they couldn't take those pictures. In China, you can get arrested for taking pictures of pretty much anywhere, subject to whims of course (they can't put all tourists in prison or they would have no tourist industry). In America, you can take pictures of anything you want as long as you are allowed to be there. Some Chinese guy could (and often do!) take a picture of an Aircraft Carrier in port in San Diego and not go to jail for spying, while some American guy doing the same thing in Qingdao is in huge trouble if the police decide to bother. This is in a perfectly touristy place, where you could just be taking pictures of scenery or something. The only issue is when you gain access to somewhere you aren't supposed to be (say a military base) and start taking pictures; e.g. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/three-chinese-nationals-sentenced-prison-illegal-photography-us-naval-installation-key https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/three-chinese-nationals.... In that case, the judge is going to take into account if they knew they were in an naval air station or not (rather than strolling along the road in San Diego). > Not to call out on a bad advice, but as a tourist I personally prefer "no one cares about you once you've passed customs, just don't be evil" countries. I'd rather talk my way out of an awkward situation, than risk getting in a "rule of law" trouble for accidentally making a wrong turn and breaking a vague traffic rule on an empty road. At least go to countries where the laws aren't considered state secrets. Because if what they can get you for is a secret, you are screwed (but in general, you are screwed anyways, because laws in those countries are just tools anyways). And yes, don't be an evil jerk and 99.9% of the time nothing is happening to you, but in the USA you usually just need a good lawyer while in China you are at the mercy of whether the local party official wants to make an example of you or not. Anyways, if you are afraid of rule of law, don't go to Singapore. They will fine you a few thousand dollars for making that wrong turn, or stopping at the wrong time...etc...the exact opposite of China actually.

MerelyMortal 3y ago

> allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual. 'Pay my extortion fee, or I'll tell the government that you owe me money or we have a dispute, then you will miss your flight and you'll have to buy new, more expensive plane tickets.'

foverzar 3y ago
This kind of scam can be pulled off in any country.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  No it can't.
  - foverzar 3y ago
    Yes it can, but whatever, I know I can't force insight on desperate naivite
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      No it can't, but whatever, I know you'll never put forth a convincing argument to substantiate your ridiculous claim

Guvante 3y ago

Did any of those people owe money to an American company or were they all detained for criminal offenses? The fact that sometimes you can't leave isn't the story. The fact that a citizen business can report theft and block your right to go home is.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. and yet, when another country does it, China retaliates by arresting arbitrary foreign national civilians and holding them for ransom [0] [0]: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-canada-china-arrests-washington-2b6e0977ae93557ad1265869d57838ed https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-canada-china-arrests-...

NicoJuicy 3y ago

Russians use diplomacy passports for their spies. It's not ironic that they are being checked extra while they are threatening with nuclear war every week :)

foverzar 3y ago
Who said anything about green passports? > It's not ironic In the context of the narrative the OP article pushes - it is. But this is arguing perspective, which is pointless in the culture this forum is centric to.
cafard 3y ago
All countries that can afford spies use diplomatic passports for some of them.
- NicoJuicy 3y ago
  Based on what? Russia is absolutely a record holder of abuse of diplomatic passports