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This seems like a perfectly normal consequence of the "at-will" employment resultant from the primary place liberty has in our society. I see nothing wrong with

This seems like a perfectly normal consequence of the "at-will" employment resultant from the primary place liberty has in our society. I see nothing wrong with it and think this paradigm should continue and expand. I would say you have as much reason to continue to expect Uber issue you contracts as Uber has that you continue to accept them, namely none at all. A consensual relationship is one that can be terminated at any time without justification.

yieldcrv 3y ago
we could write the law to say thats the default when the power dynamics are the exact same and then let the exception make the rule, since it never will be the same
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  Why do the power dynamics have to be the same? Are you suggesting that two parties cannot have a consensual relationship unless they have the same amount of power? Why not?
  - eru 3y ago
    And how do you even measure 'power'?
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    Because it will be inevitable that someone with less power will enter into the relationship out of compulsion due to (real or perceived) no other choice, and not because they want to.
  - themitigating 3y ago
    The McDonald's CEO is gone because of a consensual relationship where the power dynamics were unbalanced
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    in employment, yes, I am suggesting that, and that the basis behind at-will employment is flawed, there are plenty of ways to allow for the paid-person to exit a contract whenever they want without it meaning the company fires them whenever they want for any reason. in other contexts, no, I am not suggesting that, but there are some fringes that try
    - thegrimmest 3y ago
      Why is employment special? Why is a person more entitled to employment than any other sort of relationship (which you seem to agree ought to be consensual)?
- irjustin 3y ago
  > thats the default when the power dynamics are the exact same That's impossible to codify at any reasonable level.
jeremyjh 3y ago
I, for one, welcome the Randroid Cyberpunk Dystopia.
ses1984 3y ago
One day your job is going to be a gig job. Sooner or later. If it happens to be later, are you going to be cool living in a privileged oligarch class that has its boot on the face of humanity? When your philosophy was developed, if you didn’t like your circumstances you could literally move to the wilderness and make a life for yourself by exploiting unclaimed land. Or if you lived in a different part of the world then nations would go to war with each other over resources. We don’t live in a world with unclaimed land anymore. It would be really super duper nice if nations stopped going to war with each other over resources. We have to figure out how to coexist with each other, and that means treating humans with more dignity than an object that is ruled by an algorithm.
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  The philosophy was developed because people cannot agree on the basics, and there is no supreme moral authority to appeal to. It follows that any enforcement of one person or group's will on another cannot be morally justified, no matter how well-meaning the imposers are. This is the only basis by which people who are fundamentally, diametrically opposed can coexist peacefully.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    This assumes an universal ultimate moral precept: that peaceful coexistence despite moral disagreement over every other precept is the ultimate and univeral moral rule. Of course, one thing on which the vast majority of people, regardless of their different moral systems, agree on is that this is not the case.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Isn't that just forcing the group that wants the status quo's will upon the group that wants change? That doesn't seem like it promotes peaceful coexistence. It just allows the group currently doing the oppressing to continue to do so.
  - 3y ago
brigandish 3y ago
I doubt John Locke would agree that liberty could mean to be suddenly left high and dry with no notice that would likely cost you money.
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  You can be left exactly as high and as dry as the contract you signed stipulates, and if you have a dispute we have a pretty good system to work that out.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Fair contracts need negotiating power on both sides.
    - themitigating 3y ago
      Equal negotiating power
      - brigandish 3y ago
        I’m not sure about equal as life can be messy (you have a cash flow problem and need to sell now, the buyer knows that - can that be equal?) but certainly fair should be a good start.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    As a practical matter, that doesn't work when the power imbalance is so great that one side doesn't have a realistic way to negotiate the contract. I.e. if the best job that someone can negotiate is one where they are being exploited or abused, then that doesn't make the exploitation/abuse any more just.
  - nextaccountic 3y ago
    The trouble is that most people will become homeless if they don't get a job. As long as there is a steady rate of unemployment, there are people that can't meaningfully decline whatever conditions are in their employment contract. And that's what this pretty good system doesn't account for: the inherent coercion of a fundamentally unjust system
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]
arrosenberg 3y ago
Corporations aren't entitled to liberty. Uber isn't a person, it's a hivemind - if it has to cut off one drone, it doesn't affect the hive. Except drivers aren't drones who can simply accept being liquidated for the good of the hive. Allowing that behavior is anti-liberty - the liquidated driver has had their means of providing for their own liberty revoked by an entity that is private, arbitrary and capricious.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I think the GP was talking about liberty with regard to the worker, that they are free to take (or refuse) any jobs they want. Of course, the inherent power imbalance between an employer and a worker is what allows for exploitation, when not otherwise protected by law.
  - arrosenberg 3y ago
    I’m directly arguing against their concept of liberty. Being at the whim of Uber’s C-Suite isn’t it.
themitigating 3y ago
"A consensual relationship" Since most of us have to work to live is it consensual? I do understand that there are other places to potentially work but that may be limited.

yieldcrv 3y ago

we could write the law to say thats the default when the power dynamics are the exact same and then let the exception make the rule, since it never will be the same

thegrimmest 3y ago
Why do the power dynamics have to be the same? Are you suggesting that two parties cannot have a consensual relationship unless they have the same amount of power? Why not?
- eru 3y ago
  And how do you even measure 'power'?
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Because it will be inevitable that someone with less power will enter into the relationship out of compulsion due to (real or perceived) no other choice, and not because they want to.
- themitigating 3y ago
  The McDonald's CEO is gone because of a consensual relationship where the power dynamics were unbalanced
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  in employment, yes, I am suggesting that, and that the basis behind at-will employment is flawed, there are plenty of ways to allow for the paid-person to exit a contract whenever they want without it meaning the company fires them whenever they want for any reason. in other contexts, no, I am not suggesting that, but there are some fringes that try
  - thegrimmest 3y ago
    Why is employment special? Why is a person more entitled to employment than any other sort of relationship (which you seem to agree ought to be consensual)?
irjustin 3y ago
> thats the default when the power dynamics are the exact same That's impossible to codify at any reasonable level.

jeremyjh 3y ago

I, for one, welcome the Randroid Cyberpunk Dystopia.

ses1984 3y ago

One day your job is going to be a gig job. Sooner or later. If it happens to be later, are you going to be cool living in a privileged oligarch class that has its boot on the face of humanity? When your philosophy was developed, if you didn’t like your circumstances you could literally move to the wilderness and make a life for yourself by exploiting unclaimed land. Or if you lived in a different part of the world then nations would go to war with each other over resources. We don’t live in a world with unclaimed land anymore. It would be really super duper nice if nations stopped going to war with each other over resources. We have to figure out how to coexist with each other, and that means treating humans with more dignity than an object that is ruled by an algorithm.

thegrimmest 3y ago
The philosophy was developed because people cannot agree on the basics, and there is no supreme moral authority to appeal to. It follows that any enforcement of one person or group's will on another cannot be morally justified, no matter how well-meaning the imposers are. This is the only basis by which people who are fundamentally, diametrically opposed can coexist peacefully.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  This assumes an universal ultimate moral precept: that peaceful coexistence despite moral disagreement over every other precept is the ultimate and univeral moral rule. Of course, one thing on which the vast majority of people, regardless of their different moral systems, agree on is that this is not the case.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- harimau777 3y ago
  Isn't that just forcing the group that wants the status quo's will upon the group that wants change? That doesn't seem like it promotes peaceful coexistence. It just allows the group currently doing the oppressing to continue to do so.
- 3y ago

brigandish 3y ago

I doubt John Locke would agree that liberty could mean to be suddenly left high and dry with no notice that would likely cost you money.

thegrimmest 3y ago
You can be left exactly as high and as dry as the contract you signed stipulates, and if you have a dispute we have a pretty good system to work that out.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  Fair contracts need negotiating power on both sides.
  - themitigating 3y ago
    Equal negotiating power
    - brigandish 3y ago
      I’m not sure about equal as life can be messy (you have a cash flow problem and need to sell now, the buyer knows that - can that be equal?) but certainly fair should be a good start.
- harimau777 3y ago
  As a practical matter, that doesn't work when the power imbalance is so great that one side doesn't have a realistic way to negotiate the contract. I.e. if the best job that someone can negotiate is one where they are being exploited or abused, then that doesn't make the exploitation/abuse any more just.
- nextaccountic 3y ago
  The trouble is that most people will become homeless if they don't get a job. As long as there is a steady rate of unemployment, there are people that can't meaningfully decline whatever conditions are in their employment contract. And that's what this pretty good system doesn't account for: the inherent coercion of a fundamentally unjust system

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

[dead]

arrosenberg 3y ago

Corporations aren't entitled to liberty. Uber isn't a person, it's a hivemind - if it has to cut off one drone, it doesn't affect the hive. Except drivers aren't drones who can simply accept being liquidated for the good of the hive. Allowing that behavior is anti-liberty - the liquidated driver has had their means of providing for their own liberty revoked by an entity that is private, arbitrary and capricious.

kelnos 3y ago
I think the GP was talking about liberty with regard to the worker, that they are free to take (or refuse) any jobs they want. Of course, the inherent power imbalance between an employer and a worker is what allows for exploitation, when not otherwise protected by law.
- arrosenberg 3y ago
  I’m directly arguing against their concept of liberty. Being at the whim of Uber’s C-Suite isn’t it.

themitigating 3y ago

"A consensual relationship" Since most of us have to work to live is it consensual? I do understand that there are other places to potentially work but that may be limited.