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Literally nothing on the positive side is a weak position. Bitcoin has provided many positive things for many users, and blockchain/consensus has many promising

Literally nothing on the positive side is a weak position. Bitcoin has provided many positive things for many users, and blockchain/consensus has many promising applications beyond finance. WorldCoin’s main pitch is not financial, but based on proving human identity in a world full of AI fakery. But that’s a different discussion.

arcticbull 3y ago
> Bitcoin has provided many positive things for many users, and blockchain/consensus has many promising applications beyond finance. Sorry but no it hasn’t; and no it doesn’t. 15 years now and nothing concrete for many reasons that have been eloquently expounded on many times. If that changes let me know.
- staplers 3y ago
  About $1,000,000,000,000 opposes your viewpoint.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- holmesworcester 3y ago
  It sounds like you're lucky to have access to a reasonable banking system. Lots of people in the world don't, and in some (not all, but some) of those situations Bitcoin and similar projects have been useful to many people.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    These conversations are so tiresome. Transaction fees have spiked in the past to like $60 direct plus $200 in energy wasted. The GDP per capita in the worst-off African countries is like $200. You think they should spend 6 months of GDP per capita to make each transaction just because a lot of people are trying to make payments? Even today it's like 1% of GDP per capita per transaction in direct fees. It's inadequate for a large flea market or a midsize Costco let alone a global payments network for the underserved. Onboarding everyone onto Lightning would take 75 years and trillions of dollars in fees, plus the entire block reward. Not to mention the worst off are the most affected by volatility, and this thing flails around like a balloon you forgot to tie off. And 'similar projects' just get hacked or rugged constantly. Honestly how dare anyone recommend a system like this to the most vulnerable? They're much better served by something like M-PESA. The reality of the situation is that only the people in wealthy countries are in a position to, and can afford to, speculate on this silliness. Those people are already adequately served. The vulnerable deserve real solutions and this is at best and most charitably a distraction from their development.
    - junofan 3y ago
      If you’re ever on the ground over on the continent you’ll see it’s used by a lot of mom and pop currency exchange businesses.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        I didn't say it wasn't. I said it's an objectively poor solution by any measure, and a distraction from the development of actual solutions.
    - rvz 3y ago
      > The vulnerable deserve real solutions and this is at best a distraction from them. There already is a real solution and Moneygram with Stellar have already done this to enable instant, cheap, worldwide payments with USDC; available today. [0] Especially with countries that have their currencies devalued. A year ago you had the chance to ask them anything or give them questions about your concerns and do something about it. [1] As expected all talk and no action. [0] https://stellar.org/moneygram https://stellar.org/moneygram [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517992
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        > Even with plenty of time, you (arcticbull) didn't attend the 'Ask me Anything' session to question them or attempt to stop them with your suspicions. Believe it or not I have a job where I'm paid for, among other things my opinions. Demanding I show up and provide a service for free is not likely to be met affirmatively. If you want my time, you're welcome to contract me, but I'm not cheap. I get a lot out of these conversations here, it helps me understand consensus and challenge my own opinions, but this is strictly hobby. > ... instant, cheap, worldwide payments with USDC. USDC doesn't need a blockchain lol, if you just want a USD balance you can just open an account with Circle and move it around between accounts at Circle free of charge. Like PayPal has done forever. They only have a blockchain because it was hip, and maybe because they're idealistic - but mostly because they're looking to avoid regulation. It's just regulatory arbitrage. For the use case you enumerate here, it's strictly not necessary.
resolutebat 3y ago
Bitcoin was invented 15 years ago, shouldn't we be beyond "promising" by now?
- takeda 3y ago
  It also first appeared when Russia, invaded Georgia and had few bits that could be dismissed individually but feel like Russia had some influence. It looks like a great tool to get around sanctions.

arcticbull 3y ago

> Bitcoin has provided many positive things for many users, and blockchain/consensus has many promising applications beyond finance. Sorry but no it hasn’t; and no it doesn’t. 15 years now and nothing concrete for many reasons that have been eloquently expounded on many times. If that changes let me know.

staplers 3y ago
About $1,000,000,000,000 opposes your viewpoint.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
holmesworcester 3y ago
It sounds like you're lucky to have access to a reasonable banking system. Lots of people in the world don't, and in some (not all, but some) of those situations Bitcoin and similar projects have been useful to many people.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  These conversations are so tiresome. Transaction fees have spiked in the past to like $60 direct plus $200 in energy wasted. The GDP per capita in the worst-off African countries is like $200. You think they should spend 6 months of GDP per capita to make each transaction just because a lot of people are trying to make payments? Even today it's like 1% of GDP per capita per transaction in direct fees. It's inadequate for a large flea market or a midsize Costco let alone a global payments network for the underserved. Onboarding everyone onto Lightning would take 75 years and trillions of dollars in fees, plus the entire block reward. Not to mention the worst off are the most affected by volatility, and this thing flails around like a balloon you forgot to tie off. And 'similar projects' just get hacked or rugged constantly. Honestly how dare anyone recommend a system like this to the most vulnerable? They're much better served by something like M-PESA. The reality of the situation is that only the people in wealthy countries are in a position to, and can afford to, speculate on this silliness. Those people are already adequately served. The vulnerable deserve real solutions and this is at best and most charitably a distraction from their development.
  - junofan 3y ago
    If you’re ever on the ground over on the continent you’ll see it’s used by a lot of mom and pop currency exchange businesses.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      I didn't say it wasn't. I said it's an objectively poor solution by any measure, and a distraction from the development of actual solutions.
  - rvz 3y ago
    > The vulnerable deserve real solutions and this is at best a distraction from them. There already is a real solution and Moneygram with Stellar have already done this to enable instant, cheap, worldwide payments with USDC; available today. [0] Especially with countries that have their currencies devalued. A year ago you had the chance to ask them anything or give them questions about your concerns and do something about it. [1] As expected all talk and no action. [0] https://stellar.org/moneygram https://stellar.org/moneygram [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517992
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      > Even with plenty of time, you (arcticbull) didn't attend the 'Ask me Anything' session to question them or attempt to stop them with your suspicions. Believe it or not I have a job where I'm paid for, among other things my opinions. Demanding I show up and provide a service for free is not likely to be met affirmatively. If you want my time, you're welcome to contract me, but I'm not cheap. I get a lot out of these conversations here, it helps me understand consensus and challenge my own opinions, but this is strictly hobby. > ... instant, cheap, worldwide payments with USDC. USDC doesn't need a blockchain lol, if you just want a USD balance you can just open an account with Circle and move it around between accounts at Circle free of charge. Like PayPal has done forever. They only have a blockchain because it was hip, and maybe because they're idealistic - but mostly because they're looking to avoid regulation. It's just regulatory arbitrage. For the use case you enumerate here, it's strictly not necessary.

resolutebat 3y ago

Bitcoin was invented 15 years ago, shouldn't we be beyond "promising" by now?

takeda 3y ago
It also first appeared when Russia, invaded Georgia and had few bits that could be dismissed individually but feel like Russia had some influence. It looks like a great tool to get around sanctions.