4 ms·

(A bit off-topic, but to give another example of where convoluted hiring processes get you to...) Last year, I did 8 interviews (including 4 technical assessme

(A bit off-topic, but to give another example of where convoluted hiring processes get you to...) Last year, I did 8 interviews (including 4 technical assessments and quizzes) to get an offer from AMD (in Germany) as a software engineer. For completeness, they reached out to me. I wasn't really looking at the time. When I got the offer, salary+bonus was less than what I had at the time (a lot less now) living in a similar cost place, so I rejected the offer, obviously. In the final call, the HR person implied more than once that I was a time-waster for going through the whole process just to get the offer and then say "no" to it, that I wasn't "committed" as I said...

fluoridation 3y ago
Did you not try to negotiate up?
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  Sure, they bumped it a bit to try convincing me, but still less. I guess they wanted me some proof I wasn't moving _because_ of the money, or some other BS companies try to tell themselves...
  - bluGill 3y ago
    If I didn't want to work for money there are plenty of charitable causes I believe in that need help, why would I work for you?
michaelteter 3y ago
This is exactly why companies need to list the salary range for a position.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  This is exactly why most do not, unless they legally have to.
tristor 3y ago
Hardware companies simply don't pay as much as software companies in industry. I don't fully understand the reasons, because hardware is often more difficult to deal with than software. That said, I have found that there has been a rash of companies / recruiters reaching out to relatively senior people making offers that wouldn't have been acceptable a decade ago, much less in 2023. I recently had one reach out to me (I'm in Colorado, so they're legally obligated to provide a salary range) about a job that required a very specialized skillset at a senior level that I happen to have (although it's nothing to do with what I do /now/), and the top of the salary range was $20k/yr less than what I was making doing that same work in 2014, almost a decade ago and more than $100k/yr less than I make now. There's a HUGE disconnect between management at most companies, especially in HR roles, and the actual market for specialized technical labor. At least in the US, I attribute this to HR roles treating Department of Labor stats like the gospel, when job categories in DoL aren't modernized and therefore cover such a broad range of subjobs that they are diluted and meaningless, while at the same time average salary is heavily skewed by the fact that largest employer in the US across almost all job categories is the federal government, which has a notoriously low payscale for skilled labor (which attracts exactly the sort of toads on a log you'd expect). I am not currently in the market for a new job, but I switched roles at the beginning of 2022 and I made it a point of starting my conversations with recruiters by telling them rather directly "I have no concerns about my ability to do whatever is necessary within the job, my only question is are you willing to pay me what I'm worth?" The company I eventually accepted a position at had to go through a lot of internal bureaucracy to make my offer, but only put me through one round of interviewing before they did the legwork to make sure they could make it worth my while before running me through their entire process. I think it's especially rich that HR people think you're wasting /their/ time when they make you an insultingly low offer after extensive interviewing, especially considering there's a massive skills gap between tech workers and HR folks (who are a dime a dozen).
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  > I have found that there has been a rash of companies / recruiters reaching out to relatively senior people making offers that wouldn't have been acceptable a decade ago, much less in 2023 I think this has an angle of the artificially created "crisis/layoffs" headlines, which never clarify that there is a huge lack of senior people in the market, much bigger than any layoff could produce. In this way, they managed to trick a few people into lower paid jobs. > I have no concerns about my ability to do whatever is necessary within the job, my only question is are you willing to pay me what I'm worth? That is a great line to start with. I'm not looking into a new job right now, but certainly am being upfront to any recruiter that reaches out, and asking the salary and full details of the company (e.g. in case they are not upfront with the company name, which is a massive red flag to me).
nfriedly 3y ago
That sucks. Personally, I won't go beyond the first interview without at least a brief discussion of salary. I always ask what they're targeting first, but if they decide to be cagey, I'll throw out a range where the low end is comfortably above what I'm currently making, enough that I would actually consider the offer. I already get paid pretty well, so I think this has saved myself and others quite a lot of time. (I also tend to reply to recruiter emails with a polite "no, thanks, but can you share the pay range for this role?". Maybe half reply with numbers, which is enough to keep a good sense of where the market is at.)
RobertSponge 3y ago
Did you agree to 8 rounds of interview, without knowing if there is a match between your salary expectation and their salary range?
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  That’s a common mistake, I agree. In my case, they knew my current salary and expected salary from the first call. They didn’t commit to anything beforehand, and maybe that’s my mistake. OTOH it is quite a bet to spend a lot of someones (mine, in this case) betting they’re going to accept a smaller salary just for the privilege of working for you.
wonderwonder 3y ago
Should have told them you were committed but they were obviously not serious about hiring you with that offer. I won't even interview without a salary range being provided and then acknowledging my minimum. Otherwise it's a waste of everyones time. Any company that has an issue with this is going to be difficult to work for and treat you like you are lucky to be there.
JonChesterfield 3y ago
The hiring game is really varied across their teams fwiw. I get the impression the technical lead of some group has total discretion over how to arrive at the yes/no call.
vincentkriek 3y ago
This was my experience with canonical. I made it through the interview process to the offer stage and the offer was far from competitive for my country (the Netherlands). Was bit bummed about this, I would love to work for canonical as they do great stuff and their embedded Linux offering is a great product. Just doesn't really make sense sadly.

fluoridation 3y ago

Did you not try to negotiate up?

hashtag-til 3y ago
Sure, they bumped it a bit to try convincing me, but still less. I guess they wanted me some proof I wasn't moving _because_ of the money, or some other BS companies try to tell themselves...
- bluGill 3y ago
  If I didn't want to work for money there are plenty of charitable causes I believe in that need help, why would I work for you?

michaelteter 3y ago

This is exactly why companies need to list the salary range for a position.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
This is exactly why most do not, unless they legally have to.

tristor 3y ago

Hardware companies simply don't pay as much as software companies in industry. I don't fully understand the reasons, because hardware is often more difficult to deal with than software. That said, I have found that there has been a rash of companies / recruiters reaching out to relatively senior people making offers that wouldn't have been acceptable a decade ago, much less in 2023. I recently had one reach out to me (I'm in Colorado, so they're legally obligated to provide a salary range) about a job that required a very specialized skillset at a senior level that I happen to have (although it's nothing to do with what I do /now/), and the top of the salary range was $20k/yr less than what I was making doing that same work in 2014, almost a decade ago and more than $100k/yr less than I make now. There's a HUGE disconnect between management at most companies, especially in HR roles, and the actual market for specialized technical labor. At least in the US, I attribute this to HR roles treating Department of Labor stats like the gospel, when job categories in DoL aren't modernized and therefore cover such a broad range of subjobs that they are diluted and meaningless, while at the same time average salary is heavily skewed by the fact that largest employer in the US across almost all job categories is the federal government, which has a notoriously low payscale for skilled labor (which attracts exactly the sort of toads on a log you'd expect). I am not currently in the market for a new job, but I switched roles at the beginning of 2022 and I made it a point of starting my conversations with recruiters by telling them rather directly "I have no concerns about my ability to do whatever is necessary within the job, my only question is are you willing to pay me what I'm worth?" The company I eventually accepted a position at had to go through a lot of internal bureaucracy to make my offer, but only put me through one round of interviewing before they did the legwork to make sure they could make it worth my while before running me through their entire process. I think it's especially rich that HR people think you're wasting /their/ time when they make you an insultingly low offer after extensive interviewing, especially considering there's a massive skills gap between tech workers and HR folks (who are a dime a dozen).

hashtag-til 3y ago
> I have found that there has been a rash of companies / recruiters reaching out to relatively senior people making offers that wouldn't have been acceptable a decade ago, much less in 2023 I think this has an angle of the artificially created "crisis/layoffs" headlines, which never clarify that there is a huge lack of senior people in the market, much bigger than any layoff could produce. In this way, they managed to trick a few people into lower paid jobs. > I have no concerns about my ability to do whatever is necessary within the job, my only question is are you willing to pay me what I'm worth? That is a great line to start with. I'm not looking into a new job right now, but certainly am being upfront to any recruiter that reaches out, and asking the salary and full details of the company (e.g. in case they are not upfront with the company name, which is a massive red flag to me).

nfriedly 3y ago

That sucks. Personally, I won't go beyond the first interview without at least a brief discussion of salary. I always ask what they're targeting first, but if they decide to be cagey, I'll throw out a range where the low end is comfortably above what I'm currently making, enough that I would actually consider the offer. I already get paid pretty well, so I think this has saved myself and others quite a lot of time. (I also tend to reply to recruiter emails with a polite "no, thanks, but can you share the pay range for this role?". Maybe half reply with numbers, which is enough to keep a good sense of where the market is at.)

RobertSponge 3y ago

Did you agree to 8 rounds of interview, without knowing if there is a match between your salary expectation and their salary range?

hashtag-til 3y ago
That’s a common mistake, I agree. In my case, they knew my current salary and expected salary from the first call. They didn’t commit to anything beforehand, and maybe that’s my mistake. OTOH it is quite a bet to spend a lot of someones (mine, in this case) betting they’re going to accept a smaller salary just for the privilege of working for you.

wonderwonder 3y ago

Should have told them you were committed but they were obviously not serious about hiring you with that offer. I won't even interview without a salary range being provided and then acknowledging my minimum. Otherwise it's a waste of everyones time. Any company that has an issue with this is going to be difficult to work for and treat you like you are lucky to be there.

JonChesterfield 3y ago

The hiring game is really varied across their teams fwiw. I get the impression the technical lead of some group has total discretion over how to arrive at the yes/no call.

vincentkriek 3y ago

This was my experience with canonical. I made it through the interview process to the offer stage and the offer was far from competitive for my country (the Netherlands). Was bit bummed about this, I would love to work for canonical as they do great stuff and their embedded Linux offering is a great product. Just doesn't really make sense sadly.